Upgrade time - 5 year old system gone - will I notice the new?

[Insearchofthedream]

My system I have been running for about 5 years consisted of Kef LS50 speakers (the original pre-meta version), XTZ Edge A2-300 power amp, and a more recent WIIM Ultra streamer.

I recently picked up a bargain set of Q Accoustic Concept 300 speakers (inc the stands £1000), which has triggered me into looking at the amp for replacement.

The XTZ edge has been pretty good - but is mid pack regards performance on the ASR ratings, and TBH it felt better with the old Kef LS50s than it does with the Concept 300s.

I'm delighted with the Concept 300s (wife not so pleased) - I can feel the step up, and the music experience is so much more involving. I use both speakers in my living room which is quite large (5m x 9m) - the LS50 were awesome close up (within 6 feet), but started to feel a bit lost from my usual listening position approx 9 feet away.

Just the speaker change has been very noticeable - so now I'm conscious that I'm running with a 'mid rated' amp that had some pretty critical reviews.

I've seen the 3e A7 amps on a deal, and can pick up a mono pair for about the same as I can sell the XTZ edge for. I've always fancied the ideo of mono amps & will run these as power amps controlled by the WIIM ultra.

The ASR rating is way higher for the 3e A7 - but here's the question - will it be a noticeable step up?

 

[voodooless]

I've seen the 3e A7 amps on a deal, and can pick up a mono pair for about the same as I can sell the XTZ edge for. I've always fancied the ideo of mono amps & will run these as power amps controlled by the WIIM ultra.

Honestly, it's unlikely you will be able to distinguish them in a controlled test. But if you don't lose any monetary funds, why not?

You may also consider WiiM Amp Ultra as an all-in-one solution. Any of the WiiM products will be a bigger step up in sound quality than changing the amp. The room correction will be vastly more influential. You'll also get some bass management for a future subwoofer, if you're wife let's you have one That is another tool that will impact sound quality in a significant way.

 

[Puddingbuks]

The focus on switching amps will bring little to nothing, unless you get one with room correction. Focus on treating your room, bring down reverb times, this will really improve the sound. Even one or two absorption panels will help. Or get one or two subwoofers and a setup where you can split the signal between main speakers and subwoofer.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

Thanks - appreciate the thinking here! I have quite old fashioned ideas around amps & was not sure how much change to expect.

Agree around teh room correction - I use the WIIM ultra which comes with the room-fit tech to sweep / EQ the output response. I'm impressed with that for sure!

 

[voodooless]

In that case, I the best next upgrade would be some treatment (if you're allowed), or subwoofers.

 

[pinger]

Your amp is fine. Only the speakers change the sound other than room treatment and EQ

 

[Sokel]

I would argue about not changing the amp.
I icepower module inside it is at least two generations back and the worst thing about it is that is load depended also (even this slight, but it is)

The XTZ's naming is VERY deceiving and one thinks that it may contain the newer 300a2 modules which are no load depended and measure much better overall (about 100dB SINAD) .
Nope, it's one generation prior to the Edge version and at least a decade older from Conductor versions.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

My thinking is that the XTZ is a few years old, with the icepower tech from maybe 2014 (300 ASC modules).

As I can swap out for newer tech that is very highly rated (the 3e A7) for virtually no cost, seems like a no brainer.

There have been so many upgrades in the way class D amps function over these years, and at the most basic level the SINAD of 85dB vs 102dB should mean something?

I'm surprised that the consensus is 'not much point' given the gulf in reviews between the 2, but I will keep an open mind & see how they go!

If nothing else I cannot see them sounding any less good, gain another bit of warranty, and get to stop thinking the amp is a weak link

 

[Roland68]

My thinking is that the XTZ is a few years old, with the icepower tech from maybe 2014 (300 ASC modules).

As I can swap out for newer tech that is very highly rated (the 3e A7) for virtually no cost, seems like a no brainer.

There have been so many upgrades in the way class D amps function over these years, and at the most basic level the SINAD of 85dB vs 102dB should mean something?

I'm surprised that the consensus is 'not much point' given the gulf in reviews between the 2, but I will keep an open mind & see how they go!

If nothing else I cannot see them sounding any less good, gain another bit of warranty, and get to stop thinking the amp is a weak link

The A7 Mono offers no real advantage over the A7.
The A7 has two TPA3255, one per channel, while the A7 Mono has one. All relevant components, capacitors, inductors, etc., are only partially populated.
Technically speaking, the A7 contains two A7 Mono.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

It's mostly a practicalities thing - I can get the 2x A7 mono's for a significant cost saving over the standard stereo A7.

Plus, the A7 mono is available to purchase in my area - but the stereo is out of stock.

& the last most important bit - I always fancied the mono block route.

If you ignore the purchase price, there are 'real advantages' to going twin mono over stereo - cross channel bleed of zero - higher power - theoretical purety - looks cool - cheaper to replace 1x mono if it breaks down the line.

 

[jcarys]

If 2 monos are cheaper than stereo, then there's not much more to be said. However, crosstalk is not an issue with these modern digital amps, and the power output is basically the same. You said at the very beginning that you "fancied the idea of mono amps", so just make yourself happy and get them. Just don't expect the heavens to open up and deliver ecstatic sound. Amp changes just don't make that much difference unless one model is seriously underpowered for your speakers.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

Yep - order is in.

It's a bit of a surprise that the expectations are so low though, given all the reviews / tests.

Is it all nonsense?

 

[Roland68]

Yep - order is in.

It's a bit of a surprise that the expectations are so low though, given all the reviews / tests.

Is it all nonsense?

May I ask where you got the A7 monoblocks so cheaply and how much they cost?

Measured values for amplifiers aren't nonsense; they're an important selection criterion. However, amplifiers are a problem that's been solved for a long time, and as long as the measured values are above the audible transparency, the audible differences are very small. Of course, this assumes that the amplifier is well-designed.

Just take a look at the review of the over 30-year-old NAD 2200 on ASR. There are plenty of new and more expensive amplifiers that aren't better or are even worse. This amplifier has been one of my favorites for years, just like the A5, A7, PA5 (II), etc.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

I had a code from amazon (UK) about to expire - saved 20%, so the a7 mono cost me £120 each (no PSU - I have a few spare so no problem).

Recent sales on ebay suggest I should get something like £240 back for the xtz, so it's a break even change.

 

[Puddingbuks]

OK, now tackle those reverb times.

 

[Insearchofthedream]

I've had the 2x A7 monos in for a week or so now - I'm delighted with them.

I'm not so sure the sound is massively different from the XTZ edge, but making the change has spurred me on to tackle the room & pay more attention to the EQ / speaker positioning.

After multiple rounds of changes & moving things around, settled on an EQ that is much better (given the room) & a sound that is flipping amazing.

The amps are coupled with Q acoustics concept 300s, a Qb12 sub, and a WIIM ultra streaming Tidal (music only system - the sub just gives me the bottom octave missing from the c300s).

I will of course lay all the credit on the new amps (just in case the wife is watching).

 

[delta76]

Yep - order is in.

It's a bit of a surprise that the expectations are so low though, given all the reviews / tests.

Is it all nonsense?

Amp will not improve your sound, that is the point. Even if you upgrade to the (objectively) best amp, if it was not the amp that limiting your system (distortion, clipping), you likely won't hear any difference, maybe it can play louder.
I would say room treatment and room correction > speaker > amp >> dac >>> cables in terms of impact

 

[Insearchofthedream]

I think you are saying the same thing as previously advised when I started the thread.

I’ve taken on board the room being most important (thanks - hadn’t given this enough credit).

 

[Insearchofthedream]

So - this will put the cat amongst the pigeons.

I've now had several listening sessions with the new e3 a7 mono amps / swapped back & forth a few times with the previous XTZ Edge a2-300.

I do notice a difference, wife & daughter (who are uninsterested in the kit whatsoever) also notice it.

What we hear, when the volume is up at around 60 on the WIIM Ultra (acting as pre-amp) is that bass & guitars sound crisper. Also hearing a very noticeable difference in the way we can hear (imagine?) the size of the recording room / location of the vocalists.

Close your eyes & you can feel the big stage / tell that it was recorded in a cupboard etc.

I can explain away the 1st difference by measurements like power - but not the second.

I'm a beleiver of everything audible is visible in measurements, but confused by these findings - the xtz measures well enough that any noise is below audible, and has 300w into 4 ohms. The 3e a7 has 250w into 4 ohms but better SINAD (but again shouldn't be audible).

So what gives?

Wife & daughter have no interest in gear - so no bias - they don't have any knowledge or interest in what is making the noise.

Where can I see these things in measurements so that I can be better informed for the future? Am I just not understand the measurements well enough to determine what might account for these changes?

3e a7 sounds more powerful, and is better (differently) representing soundstage than my actually more powerful xtz edge.

Is it just that we have not determined measurements that tell the whole picture?

 

[voodooless]

If you didn’t level match using a DMM within .1v any comparison you did is worthless.