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Upgrade the two-channel speakers or build an avr focused setup??

machinejump

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Current setup is CXA81/CXN and an old pair of Klipsch KG4's (listening postion about 15ft away)
But I am having trouble hearing dialogue when I use my setup for movies and tv shows (I did make sure that the audio is set to stereo mode)

My question is.. would I be better off putting the money into upgrading the current speakers to something more modern that measures well. Or putting that same money into an AV and a trio of speakers for an LCR configuration.

Thanks
 

Vladetz

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I would invest in new speakers
 
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machinejump

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I would invest in new speakers

yea I started looking at AVR's with a decent set of fronts + center and realized it was easily going to be ~2-3k which feels like would make for a substantial audible upgrade & to the current setup's speakers...
 

coonmanx

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Honestly one easy thing to do would be to buy a decent EQ. I know a lot of people look down on EQs but for this purpose it would be an easy fix. EQ the sound to work for movie dialog and then you can always bypass it when listening to music. I have an EQ on all of my three systems. A little adjustment can go a long ways...

I don't have any problem with EQs when they are used properly...
 
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machinejump

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Honestly one easy thing to do would be to buy a decent EQ. I know a lot of people look down on EQs but for this purpose it would be an easy fix. EQ the sound to work for movie dialog and then you can always bypass it when listening to music. I have an EQ on all of my three systems. A little adjustment can go a long ways...

I don't have any problem with EQs when they are used properly...

any brands or models you would recommend looking at?
 

Marc v E

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Current setup is CXA81/CXN and an old pair of Klipsch KG4's (listening postion about 15ft away)
But I am having trouble hearing dialogue when I use my setup for movies and tv shows (I did make sure that the audio is set to stereo mode)

My question is.. would I be better off putting the money into upgrading the current speakers to something more modern that measures well. Or putting that same money into an AV and a trio of speakers for an LCR configuration.

Thanks
It depends on whether you want the ultimate focus to be audio and want to get the absolute best out of it for one or two people. Then stereo is the best choice imo. Or if your focus is more on tv/video integration and when listening to music it's meant for multiple people and a room filling sound. Then an AVR is better imo.

The best feature of the stereo is imaging and clarity. (I have this, also for movie watching, and am very pleased with it. Dialogue is easy to understand except for a handful of movies like Dune.) The tradeoff is no hdmi (or an extra box for conversion) and equalisation is only in minidsp flex or requires more effort, but is still possible.


The best feature of the multichannel imo is a room filling sound with good tonality and equalisation. And ease of an all in one functional unit for both audio and video (hdmi, equalisation, 1 remote). The tradeoff is no imaging and less clarity.

Edit: and it's better to find the cause first and then the cure as @Jim Taylor mentioned.
 
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machinejump

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First things first. You need to find out why you are having trouble hearing dialogue.

1) Was your setup always this way?
2) If not, then what has changed?
3) Is the dialogue problem ONLY present on TV and movies? It's odd that you are experiencing the problem on both movies and TV, because TV audio usually has the vocal range boosted for the specific purpose of intelligibility.
4) Does the vocal portion of music come through clearly?
5) Would you consider fiddling around with a free EQ app (like @coonmanx mentioned) to see what you can change? (It might cure everything, but then again it might not, and it might take considerable experimentation.)

My opinion is that without finding the reason behind this problem, buying new equipment might show no benefit. That would be a big financial ouch!

Jim
These are good questions. Lets see if my answers help any or just spawn more questions :D

RE: 1 - setup hasn't changed in the last couple years.
RE: 2 - I am now a couple years older (early 40's now) - for what its worth, my gf (early 30's) also sometimes grips about not hearing the dialogue clearly
RE: 3 - usually when i listen to music its either sitting in a comfy chair pulled to about 9ft away or music is playing while im moving around the room - on the couch, playing with the dog, in the kitchen etc. Also when i say TV I really just mean streamed tv series on netflix or hulu etc - not broadcast. and fwiw when watching content on youtube, where its 90% narrated content (reviews, news clips, etc) i have no issues hearing it.
RE: 4 - I think so - but i am not the most discerning listener.
RE: 5 - totally open to it, sounds fun. my room is also pretty open/funky shaped so was also thinking of getting a mic and trying to do some room correction - but got overwhelmed reading about miniDSP setups.

M
 

fpitas

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Honestly one easy thing to do would be to buy a decent EQ. I know a lot of people look down on EQs but for this purpose it would be an easy fix. EQ the sound to work for movie dialog and then you can always bypass it when listening to music. I have an EQ on all of my three systems. A little adjustment can go a long ways...

I don't have any problem with EQs when they are used properly...
No one here looks down on EQ. But to use EQ intelligently, first he needs to measure the existing frequency response.
 
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machinejump

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Here is a good source of information on speech intelligibility. On this page are visual charts for the frequency range of voice, plus a video that explains much about voice intelligibility.


The frequency range for speech clarity changes with level. For lower level speech, such as conversation, the range of 200-800Hz is most important. If the voice is raised, the frequency range doubles, to 200-1600Hz. So it makes a bit of a difference whether the vocals you're having trouble with are vocals of normal-level speech or raised-level speech (as in an action movie).

It's interesting that narrated content presents no problem. I wonder whether the streamed content to which you listen has an accentuated frequency response to make it sound more "exciting". If that is the case, then the vocals would suffer from "competition", so to speak.

If you have decent headphones, try a fast switch-in and switch-out between the phones and the speakers when you're listening to a streamed segment that presents a problem. If the speech on the phones sounds the same as on your audio setup, then the problem is the content you are receiving, not your setup.
If, on the other hand, the speech problem disappears when you listen to the phones, then the streamed content is OK and the problem is more likely something with your system.

Hope this helps.

Jim
Thanks Jim, really helpful feedback and appreciate the link. My current next steps are to order an umik-1, read that article you shared and then learn about REW. Unfortunately no headphones to test with but I did test a variety or content on my desktop setup; movie trailers to news broadcasts to music and had no 'what did they say' moments - desktop setup is a pair of Genelec 8020's.. So maybe it is just a fractured FR in my main room. Ill do some more test on lower-level vs normal level speech too - also helps that my gf is a speech pathologist so maybe she has some tests or insights she can introduce.

thanks again

M
 

sarumbear

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Current setup is CXA81/CXN and an old pair of Klipsch KG4's (listening postion about 15ft away)
But I am having trouble hearing dialogue when I use my setup for movies and tv shows (I did make sure that the audio is set to stereo mode)

My question is.. would I be better off putting the money into upgrading the current speakers to something more modern that measures well. Or putting that same money into an AV and a trio of speakers for an LCR configuration.

Thanks
The simple answer is one must use an appropriate setup for each source. Stereo systems will always have issues when delivering film soundtracks. Dialogue has its own channel and speaker for a reason. Since the 50s every cinema has one.
 

TimW

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How are those KG4's oriented in relation to your listening position? Are they just sitting on the floor or are they angled up or lifted up to ear height? With the dual woofers and two-way design there will be lobing in the upper region of the woofer's response. This may create a null in that region depending on how the speakers are oriented in and interacting with your room. With its 1,800 Hz crossover, that null would be present in a large portion of typical speech frequencies.
The-modern-human-audiogram-and-speech-frequencies-The-solid-line-represents-the-minimum.png
 
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machinejump

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How are those KG4's oriented in relation to your listening position? Are they just sitting on the floor or are they angled up or lifted up to ear height? With the dual woofers and two-way design there will be lobing in the upper region of the woofer's response. This may create a null in that region depending on how the speakers are oriented in and interacting with your room. With its 1,800 Hz crossover, that null would be present in a large portion of typical speech frequencies.
The-modern-human-audiogram-and-speech-frequencies-The-solid-line-represents-the-minimum.png

yea they are on the floor angled up about 3/4" in the front.. and probably doesnt help that the room is funny shaped. these two images show where the speakers are plus couch listening position (old speakers) and
 

sarumbear

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TimW

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yea they are on the floor angled up about 3/4" in the front.. and probably doesnt help that the room is funny shaped. these two images show where the speakers are plus couch listening position (old speakers) and
It looks like there are a few physical obstructions between the speakers and the couch if they're on the floor. The floor bounce created by the woofer response will have the null and may be coloring the sound as well. I would definitely raise them up and see if it makes a difference. Preferably with the tweeter or the point between upper woofer and tweeter at ear level.
 
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machinejump

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Where’s your screen/TV?
TimW is correct, ust projector sitting on the media console.
It looks like there are a few physical obstructions between the speakers and the couch if they're on the floor. The floor bounce created by the woofer response will have the null and may be coloring the sound as well. I would definitely raise them up and see if it makes a difference. Preferably with the tweeter or the point between upper woofer and tweeter at ear level.
Those are some good observations - ill rig something up to get them a bit higher
 

Chrispy

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What's the black box behind the real-life woofer?
 

Erici

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It looks like you could improve your sound quality with some simple adjustments to your speaker locations. If you have the KG4s, I would definitely get some short stands to lift the speakers off the floor. Here is good explanation of different location approaches:

 
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