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Upgrade Path: Active Speakers with EQ, or Bargain Passive?

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Tomino

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Since you already have REW and a mic, why not sign up for the Roon two week free trial, input your REW filters and see how you feel. I would be shocked if that didn’t deliver greater improvement to SQ than a new amp would. At the least, it will give you a gauge as to what to expect from room correction at no incremental cost. If you like it, you can extend your Roon subscription or look to other hardware or software options.
GDK -- Sounds like you've had a good experience with Roon for signal processing. Is there a story there?
 

GDK

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GDK -- Sounds like you've had a good experience with Roon for signal processing. Is there a story there?
Not really a story - I just think the Roon DSP implementation is really well done and offers a tonne of flexbility. I initially used REW and liked the results, but then worked with @mitchco to come up with a more sophisticated set of room correction filters. However, you don’t need to take it to that step. You can simply play around with the parametric EQ on your screen and see how it affects the sound.

I am sure that there are other ways to do what Roon does. I just thought that since you already were familiar with REW and could try Roon for free, it would allow you to see what room correction alone could do for your system, before you spend real money.
 
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I wanted to report back on my DSP experimentation using Roon. I hope that this thread can be helpful to people, like myself, who are generally ignorant, interested in improving their sound, willing to invest a moderate amount of time, and who are wary of both new equipment and room EQ when presented as cure-alls. This was my proof-of-concept for room EQ via Roon.

I had already spent some time moving speakers around and measuring response curves using Room EQ Wizard (REW).

I had only done sweeps in REW previously, so, having found a useful guide online,
(https://community.roonlabs.com/t/a-guide-how-to-do-room-correction-and-use-it-in-roon/23800),
I did pink noise averaging, generated the filters, and loaded the WAV file into my new, trial, Roon account as 20 Convolution filters per channel. I moved the family desktop into my basement listening room to connect it via USB to my DAC. There are a lot of steps to doing it this way, but I followed the recipe, and somewhat to my surprise, it worked. I hope at some point to post before and after response curves, if that would be helpful.

I've now spent a few days playing with Roon and listening to music with the filters in place. I'm not sure what I expected, but the difference is definitely perceptible but not dramatic. The improvement from repositioning my speakers was more noticeable, as it flattened the response curves to a greater extent and probably extended base response by 10 Hz.

With the Roon filters in place, I do not hear a difference on every track. However, my main gripe with my system has been overly-prominent treble, such as screechy violins and sopranos. Roon's DSP has helped with that. I would describe the change as if the performer had moved from a glass-enclosed space to a wooden one, which I guess makes sense. Notes in this range sound more resonant and less blown-out, to take a metaphor from photography. Beyond that, the midrange and upper base on some tracks sound fuller. The base is probably a little more articulate and even. The two channels still are not close to perfectly matched, so imaging only seems modestly improved. Those, at least, are my hot takes.

I would say that GDK's advice to give Roon a trial run was spot on. Although I don't think DSP can catapult my system far beyond what it was before, the change is noticeable, and if I'd spent $500 to get to this point in new equipment, I would not think I had been ripped off. Those things are hard to put a value on. I think I will likely stick with Roon, though with which subscription plan remains to be seen.

I hate that setting these things up is so complicated, and look forward to settling on a solution. Next step will likely be purchasing a Raspberry Pi 4 as an endpoint via Wi-Fi so that the family desktop can return to the second floor.

The experience has also convinced me that, at my stage, knowledge is more valuable than dollars in improving my sound, and less expensive, so I will likely hold off on buying a new amp or speakers for the time being. For example, I now wonder whether there is any advantage to getting fancy EQ features on active speakers if I can just do it myself in half an hour using Room EQ Wizard and Roon. Those tools would seem to give passive systems a big boost in general.
 

Chromatischism

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For a bit of a contrarian view on the electronics, why not consider:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RR6WQBW/ Denon AVR X3600H. $900.

Gives Audessey 32 room correction. Sub and powered center if you add them. Upgrade path for HT. Probably a sufficient PSU for the 2 or 3 channels, L, R, maybe C - that you will start at..

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/ (Be sure to read the posts)
It is hard to beat this due to features, convenience, and upgrade path. With a Hypex NC252MP it becomes a great combo. No fussing with trying to figure out how to integrate and EQ a sub, and top notch FIR filter correction.

If he doesn't need the extra channels and doesn't mind putting in the work there are other options to piece something together.
 
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Tomino

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It is hard to beat [Denon AVR X3600H. $900] due to features, convenience, and upgrade path. With a Hypex NC252MP it becomes a great combo. No fussing with trying to figure out how to integrate and EQ a sub, and top notch FIR filter correction.

Ignorant question: How does the Denon amp combine with the Hypex NC252MP, which I understand to mean a second amp?
 
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Tomino

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Here is my before and after. It definitely shows roon for improvement:
Before 12-7-2020.jpg
 
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Tomino

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I'm somewhat surprised that the filters didn't make more of a difference, especially in the higher frequencies. Wonder if I screwed it up somehow. I will give it another try at some point soon. Suggestions welcome.
 

Chromatischism

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I'm somewhat surprised that the filters didn't make more of a difference, especially in the higher frequencies. Wonder if I screwed it up somehow. I will give it another try at some point soon. Suggestions welcome.
Actually the result looks good. You cleaned up the bass region, which is what you want. That will improve the perceived clarity of the whole speaker.
 
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Thanks for your encouraging thoughts. I may not declare victory yet, but I think I'll take the night off from the pursuit of midfi audio perfection and just enjoy some music. I do think the clarity and imaging is noticicably improved.

Earlier, I was listening to a classical song, one from the Dichterliebe cycle by Robert Schumann, and I'm pretty sure Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau sprayed me when he said "spriessen": he seemed six feet away.
 
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taisho

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The things that influence the final listening experience, from the most important:

1. Listening position and placement of speakers (and subwoofer(s)) in your room.
2. Acoustic treatment with an emphasis on bass traps. The basic and relatively inexpensive treatment is - in all 4 corners have diagonally placed panels, from the floor to the ceiling. The depth should be at least 20 cm and the best material depends on depth, the simulation can be done here: http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php
3. Speakers, but after crossing a certain line (DBR-62 at <$300) the difference is not big.
4. Adding one or multiple subwoofers. Very costly and makes sense only if points 1. and 2. are respected.
5. Amp - good as long as it produces enough power and doesn't generate audible noise. Amp distortion is insignificant compared to speaker distortion when looking at moderately performing gear. I bought AIYIMA TPA3251 for $67 from Aliexpress (aluminum case Amp + adapter + shipping) and for a small room, it's perfect. At >30cm from speaker completely inaudible. Leaves more money for acoustic treatment.
6. DAC - someone would have to intentionally purchase a badly measuring product to hear an audible difference. On the other hand, using an internal soundcard instead of a DAC can cause very audible problems because of interference.

This being said, I recommend a bigger focus on acoustic treatment, the part that is often completely neglected. Acoustics Insider on YouTube is great on this topic if you start with the more basic videos.

P.S. Sorry for not listing super-important factors like mood, being rested, the company of beautiful girls, or level of alcohol in the blood.
 
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This being said, I recommend a bigger focus on acoustic treatment, the part that is often completely neglected. Acoustics Insider on YouTube is great on this topic if you start with the more basic videos.[/QUOTE]

I'm a newbie, but I have already learned to love Jesko. So do you think early reflections account for my variance over 1k?
 

andreasmaaan

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Tomino

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Pun intended? :D



It actually looks like it's done a pretty decent job.

You've got a bit of an odd zig-zag now though (I've exaggerated it a bit in black):

View attachment 98603

It would be good to diagnose what's causing that to work out whether/how to address it.
Sadly, yes. Pun intended. Please don't judge.
Not sure how to diagnose the zigzag, as I don't have access to a free-field frequency response curve for the speakers, Joseph Audio RM20s. I've never seen one.
So it could be the room, the speakers, or the amp (least likely I'm guessing), I suppose. Ideas welcome.
 

taisho

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So do you think early reflections account for my variance over 1k?

Frequency response adjustments need compromises. It is very possible that taming the range with the worst original performance, 50-250Hz, will not only directly improve this area but also enable altering the response in higher frequencies in a way that the resulting slope will be more uniform and gentle. It's also worth to play with toe-in and see if 10K+ changes for the better.
 
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