Upgrade or Stay Put?

[FrantzM]

Hi

I didn't want to hijack the "

How do you know if it can sound better?"​

thread.
These can be merged if the moderators and you, the people want it
This is a very interesting subject. A question, I am currently grappling with

Bear with me. I came from the subjective side of things. I had my doubts about the ever escalating prices of High End Audio gears, but it took Amir invitation to ASR to change my Audio World. I understood only then, after more than 50 years in the Hobby, that there was a Science to good sound. ASR changed my audio world completely ... FOR THE BEST... ( I had to shout). I have objectively good reproduction for so much less than I could imagine... My entire Audio system is an HT/MCH/ Atmos, all HT codecs system on which I listen to music on 2-Channel and is full range .. yes! It goes down to 20 Hz and up to where the bats converse... and total cost of components is around $5,000. Cables, accessories and room treatment included.. 7 speakers 2, subs. Small 16 x 10 x 9 (L x W x H feet) room
I also have a top-flight TOTL, SOTA, World-Class, Extremely Low Distortion, ASR-leading SINAD Headphones chain. (HifiMan HE-6SE, THX 789AAA, Headphones Amp and Topping D10 Balanced DAC...SINAD of the electronic chains has to be around 110 dB or perhaps more. FR flat from 5 Hz to 40KHz... Adheres like glue to the Harman curve which I love; overall, impressive sound. You put the headphones on ... and .. yeah.. It sound ridiculously good, one of those rare headphones that can shake you entire head if you want to, without breaking a sweat .. I also have a Stax ESL headphones that I refuse to sell, although I don't listen to it anymore, has been perhaps a year since I heard them properly EQ-ed and ... The HE-6SE is its superior by several light-years ... I have a reference. Headphones for sure... Reference nonetheless. I

The JBL LSR 308 can sound hard and a bit shouty on loud passages... I have heard better... not in my room but from memory... Do I need to change these? So satisfied I find them... They sound most of the time, sublime. I start and end my quasi-daily music sessions with a smile.. thinking all along how little I spent for that level of quality sound.. Yes, people! JBL LSR308, when crossed over at 80 Hz, i-e relieved from the low bass and at 2to 3 meters, in a small room, is as good as it gets... a sound that belies its price...

I am an audiophile ...... FOMO is part of the audiophile life or so it seems thus ... I think often, about better speakers...

My upgrade path is through active speakers that were reviewed here ( I could consider passive of excellence, say Revel) ... The speakers I have in mind are the JBL 708, first and foremost, but, if I manage to get over its horizontal look, the Neuman KH 310 is very strongly in the running. I could be convinced to go Genelec perhaps the 8341, 8351 or ???
I am adding one more subwoofer, Rythmik, SVS, Monoprice or HSU? I want to go under 20 Hz ... with authority. I also need to smooth out the bass. I can move a bit in the couch and the bass changes audibly. This soon to be under way. Not part of the question... I shall add this subwoofer
I have 3 x LSR 308 front and 2 LSR 305 .. current market price less than $1200 for all 5 !!!! . One 708 is $2100 at Sweetwater... Just ..One, lone speaker, I need 3 ... I would keep the 308 for surround and move the 305 for Atmos or rear surround ... but just one speaker is the price of my entire speaker loom... Would the upgrade be worth it?

I don't have the luxury of auditioning. Do I need to upgrade? Is it worth it ?

Peace.

 

[Triliza]

It's great to hear that you are pleased with what you have without spending a fortune, it shows that we can have good sound without breaking the bank. I can't offer any helpful advice about the upgrade part, but I am curious to know if you are using an avr for the ht or some other solution (didn't understood the codecs part)?

 

[DMill]

If you have the money and inclination why not go for it? I don’t know that spending more will equate to dramatic improvements. In some cases, it may even be a step back. And I do believe In diminishing returns on equipment. But the changes you’re considering all seem like good choices. Little things like setup, EQ and room treatments might help too.

 

[Dj7675]

Hi

I didn't want to hijack the "

How do you know if it can sound better?"​

thread.
These can be merged if the moderators and you, the people want it
This is a very interesting subject. A question, I am currently grappling with

Bear with me. I came from the subjective side of things. I had my doubts about the ever escalating prices of High End Audio gears, but it took Amir invitation to ASR to change my Audio World. I understood only then, after more than 50 years in the Hobby, that there was a Science to good sound. ASR changed my audio world completely ... FOR THE BEST... ( I had to shout). I have objectively good reproduction for so much less than I could imagine... My entire Audio system is an HT/MCH/ Atmos, all HT codecs system on which I listen to music on 2-Channel and is full range .. yes! It goes down to 20 Hz and up to where the bats converse... and total cost of components is around $5,000. Cables, accessories and room treatment included.. 7 speakers 2, subs. Small 16 x 10 x 9 (L x W x H feet) room
I also have a top-flight TOTL, SOTA, World-Class, Extremely Low Distortion, ASR-leading SINAD Headphones chain. (HifiMan HE-6SE, THX 789AAA, Headphones Amp and Topping D10 Balanced DAC...SINAD of the electronic chains has to be around 110 dB or perhaps more. FR flat from 5 to 40Hz... Adhere like glue to the Harman curve which I love; overall, impressive sound. You put the headphones on ... and .. yeah.. It sound ridiculously good, one of those rare headphones that can shake you entire head if you want to without breaking a sweat .. I also have a Stax ESL headphones that I refuse to sell, although I don't listen to it anymore, has been perhaps a year since I heard them properly EQ-ed and ... The HE-6SE is its superior by several light-years ... I have a reference. Headphones for sure... Reference nonetheless. I

The JBL LSR 308 can sound hard and a bit shouty on loud passages... I have heard better... not in my room but from memory... Do I need to change these? So satisfied I find them... They sound most of the time, sublime. I start and end my quasi-daily music sessions with a smile.. thinking all along how little I spent for that level of quality sound.. Yes, people! JBL LSR308, when crossed over at 80 Hz, i-e relieved from the low bass and at 2to 3 meters, in a small room, is as good as it gets... a sound that belies its price...

I am an audiophile ...... FOMO is part of the audiophile life or so it seems thus ... I think often, about better speakers...

My upgrade path is through active speakers that were reviewed here ( I could consider passive of excellence, say Revel) ... The speakers I have in mind are the JBL 708, first and foremost, but, if I manage to get over its horizontal look, the Neuman KH 310 is very strongly in the running. I could be convinced to go Genelec perhaps the 8341, 8351 or ???
I am adding one more subwoofer, Rythmik, SVS, Monoprice or HSU? I want to go under 20 Hz ... with authority. I also need to smooth out the bass. I can move a bit in the couch and the bass changes audibly. This soon to be under way. Not part of the question... I shall add this subwoofer
I have 3 x LSR 308 front and 2 LSR 305 .. current market price less than $1200 for all 5 !!!! . One 708 is $2100 at Sweetwater... Just ..One, lone speaker, I need 3 ... I would keep the 308 for surround and move the 305 for Atmos or rear surround ... but just one speaker is the price of my entire speaker loom... Would the upgrade be worth it?

I don't have the luxury of auditioning. Do I need to upgrade? Is it worth it ?

Peace.

I have had quite a few different speakers in my home theater the past few years. I have a 120inch wide screen (not AT).
I had 3 308P’s below the screen > 3 Revel M16s>3 Revel M106s>Revel C208>3 JBL 708P’s
Right now I am deciding between 3 708P’s or 3 JBL 6332’s.
I had the 3 308s for I think 3-4 months and they sounded very good. I did not have any of the other speakers to test side by side so it is off memory unfortunately. There were 2 areas that the 708p do quite a lot better than the 308p. The first is the bass. The 308 the bass always sounded tubby/boxy to me. Less so when crossed over to subs. The second thing is the 708p plays loudly very well. I sit at around 14 feet and it can play at volumes louder than I would care to listen to. The 308p can’t do that. It will play just fine at medium volume which is probably fine in most scenarios.
Is it worth it is a harder question to answer. My opinion is yes but it is quite a lot more expensive as you noted. My parade of speakers in my HT will end with either the 708Ps or the 6332s.

 

[FrantzM]

It's great to hear that you are pleased with what you have without spending a fortune, it shows that we can have good sound without breaking the bank. I can't offer any helpful advice about the upgrade part, but I am curious to know if you are using an avr for the ht or some other solution (didn't understood the codecs part)?

I use a Denon AVR-X3400H. I like Audyssey a lot, especially DEQ, Dynamic EQ, which varies the EQ with the volume. It has all the current codecs. i enjoy Atmos in movies, don't care that much for it in music ...yet... I plan, to acquire , waiting for the Audyssey people to relax their collective ... bottom opening, and allow transfer of the license to a new AVR... In which case I am buying.
I could one day move to a Trinnov or equivalent. Again, I don't feel the need, I have not yet heard a Trinnov-based system , thus I don't know what it would bring to the table.

In term of pure HT, my LG OLED is superior to my front projector by all metrics .. except scale and impact... I do find myself watching my preferred movies on the PJ. although its limitations are to me obvious. I will wait for the 98" LG OLED to come down in price. The differences in visual impact, immersion and participation into , the story are, to me , very noticeable between 83 inches diagonal and 100" inch diagonal, despite the overwhelmingly superior picture of the OLED. No comparison on PQ.

Thus my question: Would I get the same from, objectively better speakers?

 

[Snoopy]

The HE-6SE V2 can be purchased for 599 USD. That's TOTL already?

 

[FrantzM]

Wel

The HE-6SE V2 can be purchased for 599 USD. That's TOTL already?

HifiMan is a weird company. The differences between the 6SE and the 6SEv2 are of marketing and sales channel, perhaps the headband, else, same headphones. The SEv2 is strictly from Adorama where you are kind playing a lottery: they are often DOA or so it seems. Look at its measurements and these are amazing. especially the THD which is approaching that of electronics, FR is extended as well. That is Top Of The Line performance, in my book and many others. That it can be had for $599 is absurd. I bought mine at $459!!!!, it was DOA, called HifiMan they sent me a new working one. 2 days later... Look again at the ASR review, the HE6, stand tall among all headphones reviewed. Top 5, definitely, perhaps top 3... . Objective performances are better than any Sennheiser, including the HD800, and approaches that of the Dan Clark Stealth, the present king of the Hill, which cost $4,000.oo.. I have never heard a Sennheiser HD800 but the spatial qualities of the HE6Sev2 are truly exceptional... So.. TOTL.


Peace.

 

[Triliza]

I use a Denon AVR-X3400H. I like Audyssey a lot, especially DEQ, Dynamic EQ, which varies the EQ with the volume. It has all the current codecs. i enjoy Atmos in movies, don't care that much for it in music ...yet... I plan, to acquire , waiting for the Audyssey people to relax their collective ... bottom opening, and allow transfer of the license to a new AVR... In which case I am buying.
I could one day move to a Trinnov or equivalent. Again, I don't feel the need, I have not yet heard a Trinnov-based system , thus I don't know what it would bring to the table.

In term of pure HT, my LG OLED is superior to my front projector by all metrics .. except scale and impact... I do find myself watching my preferred movies on the PJ. although its limitations are to me obvious. I will wait for the 98" LG OLED to come down in price. The differences in visual impact, immersion and participation into , the story are, to me , very noticeable between 83 inches diagonal and 100" inch diagonal, despite the overwhelmingly superior picture of the OLED. No comparison on PQ.

Thus my question: Would I get the same from, objectively better speakers?

Screen size is important for me too, I am watching at about 110 inches with my pj. About the audio part, I'd say go for it, if other priorities don't require your immediate attention financially. Getting new speakers will get you excited for a time, who doesn't like that, and I want to believe (logically?) you'll get some improvement on fidelity.

 

[LTig]

Updating the front speakers certainly is the best you can do. The 708 are the least different looking update and a logical choice if you like the 308s. However I would go for a 3-way speaker (Kali IN8, Neumann KH310 or KH420, Genelec 8351) because the lower IMD is what counts most in my view to get cleaner sound.

 

[Waxx]

I would also look for more powerfull speakers, especially the front. Advice is hard to give but the 708 is indeed a logic choice if you like the JBL's. The others adviced above are good but way more expensive.

 

[MattHooper]

Hi

I didn't want to hijack the "

How do you know if it can sound better?"​

thread.
These can be merged if the moderators and you, the people want it
This is a very interesting subject. A question, I am currently grappling with

Bear with me. I came from the subjective side of things. I had my doubts about the ever escalating prices of High End Audio gears, but it took Amir invitation to ASR to change my Audio World. I understood only then, after more than 50 years in the Hobby, that there was a Science to good sound. ASR changed my audio world completely ... FOR THE BEST... ( I had to shout). I have objectively good reproduction for so much less than I could imagine... My entire Audio system is an HT/MCH/ Atmos, all HT codecs system on which I listen to music on 2-Channel and is full range .. yes! It goes down to 20 Hz and up to where the bats converse... and total cost of components is around $5,000. Cables, accessories and room treatment included.. 7 speakers 2, subs. Small 16 x 10 x 9 (L x W x H feet) room
I also have a top-flight TOTL, SOTA, World-Class, Extremely Low Distortion, ASR-leading SINAD Headphones chain. (HifiMan HE-6SE, THX 789AAA, Headphones Amp and Topping D10 Balanced DAC...SINAD of the electronic chains has to be around 110 dB or perhaps more. FR flat from 5 Hz to 40KHz... Adheres like glue to the Harman curve which I love; overall, impressive sound. You put the headphones on ... and .. yeah.. It sound ridiculously good, one of those rare headphones that can shake you entire head if you want to, without breaking a sweat .. I also have a Stax ESL headphones that I refuse to sell, although I don't listen to it anymore, has been perhaps a year since I heard them properly EQ-ed and ... The HE-6SE is its superior by several light-years ... I have a reference. Headphones for sure... Reference nonetheless. I

The JBL LSR 308 can sound hard and a bit shouty on loud passages... I have heard better... not in my room but from memory... Do I need to change these? So satisfied I find them... They sound most of the time, sublime. I start and end my quasi-daily music sessions with a smile.. thinking all along how little I spent for that level of quality sound.. Yes, people! JBL LSR308, when crossed over at 80 Hz, i-e relieved from the low bass and at 2to 3 meters, in a small room, is as good as it gets... a sound that belies its price...

I am an audiophile ...... FOMO is part of the audiophile life or so it seems thus ... I think often, about better speakers...

My upgrade path is through active speakers that were reviewed here ( I could consider passive of excellence, say Revel) ... The speakers I have in mind are the JBL 708, first and foremost, but, if I manage to get over its horizontal look, the Neuman KH 310 is very strongly in the running. I could be convinced to go Genelec perhaps the 8341, 8351 or ???
I am adding one more subwoofer, Rythmik, SVS, Monoprice or HSU? I want to go under 20 Hz ... with authority. I also need to smooth out the bass. I can move a bit in the couch and the bass changes audibly. This soon to be under way. Not part of the question... I shall add this subwoofer
I have 3 x LSR 308 front and 2 LSR 305 .. current market price less than $1200 for all 5 !!!! . One 708 is $2100 at Sweetwater... Just ..One, lone speaker, I need 3 ... I would keep the 308 for surround and move the 305 for Atmos or rear surround ... but just one speaker is the price of my entire speaker loom... Would the upgrade be worth it?

I don't have the luxury of auditioning. Do I need to upgrade? Is it worth it ?

Peace.

I don't really have any advice, but I'm wondering:

Do you find the issues have with the JBLs to be variable? Is it based reliably on source material?

Just wondering because, human nature being what it is, I (along with many) have noticed that occasionally my system will sound unimpressive. Almost as if I'd downgraded my speakers slightly or something. And yet...the next day or so I'll fire it up and I'm blown away again. Some audiophiles out there (not on ASR) will put these things down to "your power supply is variable....you need a PS Audio conditioner, man!" whereas I see it as a quirk of perception. Maybe just tired one day, less so the next.

I get around the upgrade bug somewhat by...actually upgrading ;-)

(Joke, sort of. I tend to have more than one pair of speakers I really like, so if I'm getting a bit blase about the sound I can switch to the other and things are fresh again).

 

[FeddyLost]

Would the upgrade be worth it?

Upgrade for non-profitable system (i.e. not a studio) NEVER worth it.
IMO if you don't have complains that can be confirmed with measures, all non-crucial upgrades will be barely justified.
I'd say, you need to compare 308 and 708 face-to-face in some studio equipment shop with room treatment, equal SPL and your material.
If you find 708s obviusly better and have resources, then you might upgrade. But difference will be not 10 times, of course.

PS It reminds me like I went into headphones shop trying to find way to upgrade without overpay. Significant difference costed 3 times over in-ears what I had...

 

[PointyFox]

Wel

HifiMan is a weird company. The differences between the 6SE and the 6SEv2 are of marketing and sales channel, else, same headphones. The SEv2 is strictly from Adorama where you are kind playing a lottery: they are often DOA or so it seems. Look at its measurements and these are amazing. especially the THD which is approaching that of electronics, FR is extended as well. That is Top Of The Line performance, in my book and many others. That it can be had for $599 is absurd. I bought mine at $459!!!!, it was DOA, called HifiMan they sent me a new working one. 2 days later... Look again at the ASR review, the HE6, stand tall among all headphones reviewed. Top 5, definitely, perhaps top 3... . Objective performances are better than any Sennheiser, including the HD800, and approaches that of the Dan Clark Stealth, the present king of the Hill, which cost $4,000.oo.. I have never heard a Sennheiser HD800 but the spatial qualities of the HE6Sev2 are truly exceptional... So.. TOTL.


Peace.

My He6se v2 from Adorama was DoA too. Noticed a tear in one of the drivers. Ended up returning it and buying another. I'd say it's up there with the $1000-$2000 headphones as well. Not as good overall as my Stealth though.

 

[Jimster480]

As a person who has mostly the same gear for 5 years; I'd not spend more unless you are getting a real sonic upgrade..
I just upgraded my DAC after 5 years to get MQA support, otherwise I didn't need anything better than my DX7. I also use a THX 789 but I have OPPO PM-2, DC Aeon Flow Closed, Hifiman Ananda (recently acquired for a great price on ebay).

 

[Peluvius]

I also have a top-flight TOTL, SOTA, World-Class, Extremely Low Distortion, ASR-leading SINAD Headphones chain. (HifiMan HE-6SE, THX 789AAA, Headphones Amp and Topping D10 Balanced DAC...SINAD of the electronic chains has to be around 110 dB or perhaps more. FR flat from 5 Hz to 40KHz... Adheres like glue to the Harman curve which I love; overall, impressive sound. You put the headphones on ... and .. yeah.. It sound ridiculously good, one of those rare headphones that can shake you entire head if you want to, without breaking a sweat .. I also have a Stax ESL headphones that I refuse to sell, although I don't listen to it anymore, has been perhaps a year since I heard them properly EQ-ed and ... The HE-6SE is its superior by several light-years ... I have a reference. Headphones for sure... Reference nonetheless. I

I don't have the luxury of auditioning. Do I need to upgrade? Is it worth it ?

Peace.

I think you have a good reference with your headphones. What if your HT/listening space could sound more like them? Whether it is worth it is only a question you can answer but you can be reasonably confident in saying that any of the speakers you mentioned you were considering would move you closer to your headphones.

For my 2cents worth and just to add something to the discussion, I would consider Dirac or some Room EQ as a next step perhaps. It will be something to keep regardless of your speaker choices (unless you go for a full Genelec GLM type setup).

 

[Cote Dazur]

The JBL LSR 308 can sound hard and a bit shouty on loud passages... I have heard better... not in my room but from memory..

So you mean to say that on some recordings, at some sound level from where they are located and from where you sit your speakers appear to sometime have a harder sound than what you would like to be. Do you really think that there is a speaker out there that will always fulfill your expectations on always sounding great in any circumnavigate and conditions?
Using headphones as a reference to listening to speakers, 2.0 or 5.1, is a terrible idea. They are 2 very different way to enjoy or explore music both with plus and minus.
Enjoy what you have and enjoy music.

 

[FrantzM]

So you mean to say that on some recordings, at some sound level from where they are located and from where you sit your speakers appear to sometime have a harder sound than what you would like to be. Do you really think that there is a speaker out there that will always fulfill your expectations on always sounding great in any circumnavigate and conditions?
Using headphones as a reference to listening to speakers, 2.0 or 5.1, is a terrible idea. They are 2 very different way to enjoy or explore music both with plus and minus.
Enjoy what you have and enjoy music.

@Cote Dazur

I enjoy my present system, this is, I believe clear in my OP. The limitations of the 308 are real and heard, not imagined. Bothersome? A subjective call, sometime I am annoyed, often a lot. Operatic voices, sopranos in particular are irritating though the LSR 308, consistently. As an enthusiast, i would like to improve my system, as an audiophile, I admit a bit of FOMO, thus the reason of this thread. I enjoy music, a lot , and now, movies too and am so pleased that I didn't have to spend my customary amounts... Listening to my headphones system let me know that I am missing a few things, I would like to address them with the maximum ROI. ASR has led me to believe that it is indeed possible and I am exploring that, while enjoying the music on my current system

Peace

 

[BDWoody]

I don't have the luxury of auditioning. Do I need to upgrade? Is it worth it ?

Yes.

The very worst that happens is you sell whatever you buy (if you can't return them) if you don't feel the value, but you will.

 

[andyc56]

... I think often, about better speakers...

My upgrade path is through active speakers that were reviewed here ( I could consider passive of excellence, say Revel) ... The speakers I have in mind are the JBL 708, first and foremost, but, if I manage to get over its horizontal look, the Neuman KH 310 is very strongly in the running. I could be convinced to go Genelec perhaps the 8341, 8351 or ???
I am adding one more subwoofer, Rythmik, SVS, Monoprice or HSU? I want to go under 20 Hz ... with authority. I also need to smooth out the bass. I can move a bit in the couch and the bass changes audibly. This soon to be under way. Not part of the question... I shall add this subwoofer
I have 3 x LSR 308 front and 2 LSR 305 .. current market price less than $1200 for all 5 !!!! . One 708 is $2100 at Sweetwater... Just ..One, lone speaker, I need 3 ... I would keep the 308 for surround and move the 305 for Atmos or rear surround ... but just one speaker is the price of my entire speaker loom... Would the upgrade be worth it?

I had the JBL 708i passives and moved to the Neumann KH310 and am extremely pleased. I've never heard better in my system.

 

[dfuller]

The JBL LSR 308 can sound hard and a bit shouty on loud passages...

Yeah, that's because they run out of steam real fast. You want better performance? You're looking at minimum at something like Focal Solo6s or Genelec 8040s.