Upgrade from Neumann KH310 for home listening?

[574stereo]

It’s entirely possible that what turned you off about the D&D was very high THD, I’ve had the same experience. Technically ‘hard to find a fault when listening’… but I’m subjectively completely unengaged with the music. Neumann, Grimm haven’t given me the same feeling.

ATC SCM40 active are worth a considering. Sneered at by a lot of people on this forum although what measurements are available look good. Very (!!!) low THD, off-axis performance is still good (maybe not as class leading as D&D). Superb dynamics. Very easy to integrate with a subwoofer due to the sealed box.

 

[markstein]

It’s entirely possible that what turned you off about the D&D was very high THD, I’ve had the same experience. Technically ‘hard to find a fault when listening’… but I’m subjectively completely unengaged with the music. Neumann, Grimm haven’t given me the same feeling.

ATC SCM40 active are worth a considering. Sneered at by a lot of people on this forum although what measurements are available look good. Very (!!!) low THD, off-axis performance is still good (maybe not as class leading as D&D). Superb dynamics. Very easy to integrate with a subwoofer due to the sealed box.

Thank you, had the same thought about the high D&D 3rd order distortion as well. No option for me.

The ATC SCM40A looks interesting as well, however it is quite expensive for what it is (compare this to the KH310)... Might listen to that one as well.

 

[3125b]

Apparently the D&D has about 36ms latency as measured by Erin, did you notice that?
That could definitely be an issue for audio-visual content.

 

[kharan]

There's a low latency mode at 3 ms.

 

[markstein]

Apparently the D&D has about 36ms latency as measured by Erin, did you notice that?
That could definitely be an issue for audio-visual content.

The D&D 8C has about 31ms latency in linear mode. No problem for A/V, as latency is fixed and you can adjust your (at least my) TV accordingly.

 

[ZM1]

With all due respect, $300 JBL monitors and a reasonable amount of acoustic treatment will sound better than upgrading to $10,000 monitors. Otherwise, you already have amazing studio monitors intended for critical listening in a controlled environment. I don't think it's worth upgrading. Enjoy the Neumanns.

 

[Arindal]

$300 JBL monitors and a reasonable amount of acoustic treatment will sound better than upgrading to $10,000 monitors.

Could you please name those $300 monitors which offer closed-box bass, cardioid midrange, linear-phase behavior, bass down to 30Hz, sufficient SPL and controlled midrange/treble dispersion? Not to speak of subjective aspects like perfect localization precision or transpareny for midrange and treble.

I am really curious, I know quite a number of studios who would buy them straight away.

 

[markstein]

ATC SCM40 active are worth a considering. Sneered at by a lot of people on this forum although what measurements are available look good. Very (!!!) low THD, off-axis performance is still good (maybe not as class leading as D&D). Superb dynamics. Very easy to integrate with a subwoofer due to the sealed box.

Not so sure anymore the ATCs are worth testing. Maybe a little bit too euphoric?

Post in thread 'ATC speakers / Monitors'

ATC speakers / Monitors

SCM40A: As Measurements of ATC speakers generally are quite rare I will add my measurements of SCM40A here. It was improvised measurement, in the living room, speaker on the floor, mic distance 1m, mic height between mid and tweeter. Gating 4ms but there were still some reflections remaining. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[dfuller]

Not so sure anymore the ATCs are worth testing. Maybe a little bit too euphoric?

Post in thread 'ATC speakers / Monitors'

ATC speakers / Monitors

SCM40A: As Measurements of ATC speakers generally are quite rare I will add my measurements of SCM40A here. It was improvised measurement, in the living room, speaker on the floor, mic distance 1m, mic height between mid and tweeter. Gating 4ms but there were still some reflections remaining. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The 420s and ATCs have (in my experience) a very similar midrange character with the ATC having a decidedly different presentation of soundstage (probably because of their much wider dispersion).

 

[Arindal]

the ATC having a decidedly different presentation of soundstage (probably because of their much wider dispersion).

I don´t really see a reason why dispersion should be ´much wider´ with what is basically a similar concept and driver geometry (predecessors to the KH310 used the exact same ATC 3" dome, fyi). In the upper band of the midrange and transition to the tweeter, even narrow-banded differences in directivity could potentially lead to a different impression of imaging, ambience and reverb perception, so without precise data like isobaric graphs, we cannot really come to a conclusion here.

 

[dfuller]

I don´t really see a reason why dispersion should be ´much wider´ with what is basically a similar concept and driver geometry (predecessors to the KH310 used the exact same ATC 3" dome, fyi). In the upper band of the midrange and transition to the tweeter, even narrow-banded differences in directivity could potentially lead to a different impression of imaging, ambience and reverb perception, so without precise data like isobaric graphs, we cannot really come to a conclusion here.

...Because the KH420 is heavily waveguided and the ATC isn't? Also the O300 and O410 used the Dynaudio D76AF, not the SM75-150 - that was limited to the O500C.

 

[574stereo]

The ATC mid dome won't fit in the O300 or 310, the magnet & frame is far too big.

 

[markstein]

With all due respect, $300 JBL monitors and a reasonable amount of acoustic treatment will sound better than upgrading to $10,000 monitors.

Well, I do not agree to this statement. Reasonable acoustic treatment (whatever this means for a living room) certainly cannot make the choice of the loudspeaker irrelevant.
And while we get into the area of diminishing returns above the KH310, their dispersion simply is not as optimal as it could be and I am sure technically better speakers would require less EQ and can sound better. Technically better=more even horizontal dispersion, larger directivity down to lower frequencies, maybe even cardioid mid/bass.

Otherwise, you already have amazing studio monitors intended for critical listening in a controlled environment. I don't think it's worth upgrading. Enjoy the Neumanns.

I am currently doing that and they definitely make a lot of fun

For me, this project is about the possibility of further improving my listening experience, and maybe also just about getting something new.
Is it worth the hassle and the financial implications? Certainly not, from a purely rational point of view.

 

[Ype]

Hi all,

What do you do when you have 2 days off? Right - test some speakers at home!

I am currently thinking about replacing my Neumann KH310 as I feel they are not designed for my irregularly shaped, asymmetric, non treated living room and the relatively long listening distance (2.5 m for critical listening and 3.5 - 4 m on my sofa in the back of the room).

Candidates so far:
- Neumann KH420
- Dutch & Dutch 8C

What do you think?

Edit:
- Below 80Hz 2x Neumann KH810 subwoofers help out (1× front left, 1x back right)
- The KH420 are only placed upside down as I do not have appropriate stand for testing

You can turn the tweeter and mid 180 degrees to test if you still have those in your living room.

From what I've heard, in nearfield the KH420 and KH310 sound basically the same apart from bass extension.
This was with the KH420 also on the side with the mid/tweeter in the same position as the KH310.

As for cheaper JBL monitors, I owned a pair, putting them right next to the KH310 and ABX'ing them in mono it was not even close.
We also switched positions of the speakers and ABX'ed again just in case we were hitting a room mode.
Much more difference between the two then me and a friend originally expected.

Sadly I did not have the room for the KH420 at home so I never got to ABX them properly in mono.

Personally, I would definitely try the Genelec 8361A and compare it to the KH420.
You do want to ABX them blind and in mono, sighted evaluations cannot be trusted.

If I was looking for an upgrade, that would be the speaker I would try.
I would also avoid ATC, if I want to color my sound I will just use EQ.

I hope you'll have a lot of fun trying different speakers and comparing.
I sure did!

 

[Matias]

Maybe also consider the AsciLab C8C, with or without the bass extension module?

AsciLab speakers are about to launch

May I ask if Ascilab currently has plans to release a center channel speaker in the price range of F6B~C6B (under a $2000 budget)? I really like the Philharmonic Audio HT Center, and I’m currently deciding between using the BMR Monitor + HT Center as a three-way LCR setup, or Ascilab’s C6B as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is end game.

AsciLab speakers are about to launch

Is there a grill cover for the C8C? And any indication of whether the S8C will be worth double the cost/measure significantly better for having the purifi drivers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ZolaIII]

I am coming late to this but however for the sake of one small detail...
Quite frankly nothing gonna sound good there like that! And you answered your question you're self. Work on the space instead. Two rows of accustic curtains to 25~30 cm death across the whole back wall. Aditional bass trap to the left corner. Sub's to mains in 2.2 mains stil toed in more towards you and a lot of DSP-ing. That way KH310 will be more than fine and you get cuple more benefits (disreging even if they are bigger and more capable they will still all have them).
Edit: two calibration point to exact distance for the sake of ELC integration and you finding way to switch between them as effortless as you could.
And the detail whose:

 

[markstein]

Maybe also consider the AsciLab C8C, with or without the bass extension module?

I was about to pre-order them but then - basically in the last second - did not push the buy button.

Why?

First of all, I decided not to buy a loudspeaker without a listening test and based on measurements only. That does not mean that I do not trust measurements, on the contrary, however correctly interpreting them is difficult for me. Finding the "fault" in the measurements that annoyed me during listening is much easier than the other way round. And let's be honest: the C8C dispersion, while cardioid, is not perfect.

Second, I did not want to rely on Hypex MP amps with a manufacturer that far away and a distributor not being very responsive (Audiophonics). Maybe I am overly cautious.

In the end, it is the overall picture that counts when doing such a large investment, not only a single parameter. At least for me.

 

[Waxx]

Cardioid is actually very good for irregular room shapes, as it does react way less with the room. A lot of mastering engineers that i know use the Kii Audio Three BXT system, both in their studio and at home. If you can hear that somewhere, try it. It's a very different approach to cardioid than D&D, and one i like more actually. It's not cheap altough.

 

[Ype]

I also agree with Zolalll that the room setup does not look ideal, but I definitely understand having to compromise on that.

I was about to pre-order them but then - basically in the last second - did not push the buy button.

Why?

First of all, I decided not to buy a loudspeaker without a listening test and based on measurements only. That does not mean that I do not trust measurements, on the contrary, however correctly interpreting them is difficult for me. Finding the "fault" in the measurements that annoyed me during listening is much easier than the other way round. And let's be honest: the C8C dispersion, while cardioid, is not perfect.

Second, I did not want to rely on Hypex MP amps with a manufacturer that far away and a distributor not being very responsive (Audiophonics). Maybe I am overly cautious.

In the end, it is the overall picture that counts when doing such a large investment, not only a single parameter. At least for me.

Makes perfect sense, I bought the KH310 because I live next to Germany, the shop I bought from has a repair shop and I can even still get spare parts for their previous models.

Ascilab is definitely a speaker manufacturer I'd consider trying a speaker from though.
I was in a similar situation with the Genelec 8361A, they had to be ordered and I was and still am so happy with my KH310 that I never bothered trying them.
In all honestly I also don't expect them to sound much better in nearfield, and for mid/farfield I would have ended up with the KH420.

We are at a point where all speakers you are looking at should sound amazing.
I already mentioned that for testing how your speaker sounds you will have to try them in mono and test them blind (not knowing which one is playing) and ABXing them.
Adding more channels will make it more and more difficult to tell differences.

Beyond that positioning your speakers differently might help a lot, but I assume there is also the Wife/Husband Approval Factor to consider.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Ype hey I didn't say do something radical or sacrifice lot of space not even to change placement a lot (far or off how it is). No construction work nor quiet expensive and easy enough to upkeep and clean. It sure ain't gonna work when left corner gives you early and wiled refraction from sub that ruins complete impulse response along with hole lot of gain while on the right you have a void and far less reinforcement. Sorry there is no substitute for proper placement and limited accustic treatment. I would probably pass to comment entirely if there whosent that small muppet detail there.