Upgrade from Neumann KH310 for home listening?

[markstein]

Hi all,

What do you do when you have 2 days off? Right - test some speakers at home!

I am currently thinking about replacing my Neumann KH310 as I feel they are not designed for my irregularly shaped, asymmetric, non treated living room and the relatively long listening distance (2.5 m for critical listening and 3.5 - 4 m on my sofa in the back of the room).

Candidates so far:
- Neumann KH420
- Dutch & Dutch 8C

What do you think?

Edit:
- Below 80Hz 2x Neumann KH810 subwoofers help out (1× front left, 1x back right)
- The KH420 are only placed upside down as I do not have appropriate stand for testing

 

[DVDdoug]

What do you do when you have 2 days off? Right - test some speakers at home!

I am currently thinking about replacing my Neumann KH310 as I feel they are not designed for my irregularly shaped, asymmetric, non treated living room...

...What do you think?

I think if you've been testing and listening, I think you can answer better than any of us.

But, usually "better speaker" is going to sound better regardless of the room you're stuck with.

 

[markstein]

Very frst totally subjective impressions (all highpassed at 80Hz and corrected up to 200Hz, triangle approx. 2.6m, sighted test, no A/B):

KH310:
- great tonality
- great voice reproduction
- tight bass
- slightly diffuse sound stage, no clear phantom center, tilted to the left (there is a window on the left side - right side is more open)

KH420:
- same overall tonality as KH310
- voices sound larger, more lifelike. I can hear more overtones, more space around single sounds.
- bass is considerably more effortless. Not bloated. Even at high levels.
- Sound stage is much clearer than with the KH310. Room around instruments and voices is clearly noticeable. Center is clear (not razor-sharp, but clear)
- there is an overall effortlessness to the sound that makes me listen louder than usual.

8C:
- During setup I was annoyed that the Ascent app would not start in my Samsung Android phone. It always stopped with a white screen. I had to use my work iPhone to setup the speakers. This made me wonder what will happen with these little computers in five or ten or 20 years...
- Setup with the app was straight forward once it worked. Boundary setup produced good results requiring much less eq than with the other speakers.
- I feel I still want to use my subs. Otherwise the bass is suffering the same issues below 100Hz as all other speakers.
- Above 100Hz the cardioid system did not show the "night and day" differences compared to the non cardioid speakers I was expecting. However, you can see lower noise floor in the impulse response.
- Tonality is a little bit leaner as with the Neumanns.
- Voices have slightly less body and less "structure". They sound more "smooth". Or smoothed?
- The same impression with e.g. acoustic double bass. Are there less harmonics, less overtones and "structure"?
- Soundstage is very wide and super precise. More precise than with the KH420. Much much more than with the KH310.

First conclusions (may change within the next days):
- I want to somehow upgrade my. KH310. They are definitely not the end of the journey.
- The D&D 8C did not impress me as much as I expected to. I definitely have to listen more to understand their sound character and the cardioid functionality.
- If I had to chose between the three, here and now, I would grab the KH420.
- My husband hates the look of the KH420 and would like to have something smaller and nicer in our living room.

So far so good...

 

[markstein]

I think if you've been testing and listening, I think you can answer better than any of us.

But, usually "better speaker" is going to sound better regardless of the room you're stuck with.

You are perfectly right.

I am just so excited, little a little kid at x-mas, that I need to share this moment ;-)

 

[Paul7777x]

Hard to see why you’re not using room correction of some kind… assuming you’re not?

 

[markstein]

Hard to see why you’re not using room correction of some kind… assuming you’re not?

Which one would you like me to use?

Dirac live? - did that, did not like the result at all (full correction). Only usable up to 200 - 500Hz. Add like 1-2s latency and I have to start my PC for using the convolver. Only usable for critical listening.

Acourate? - same as above, however, much better results than with Dirac. Full phase linearization, very customizable FIR filter results.

Manual PEQ? - I am using that currently. Up to 200Hz (REW measuring, RME Fireface UFX room.control section).

Edit:
Lesson learned from this short first session. Loudspeaker bass correction does not alter the character of this loudspeaker. It just removes "boom". Everything else is voicing which is perfectly fine if done to taste. However, there is no such thing as a "room correction" (improving a loudspeakers directivity and the physical properties of the room).

 

[dfuller]

The 420 is, as you say, basically the 310 but more better. However they are enormous - the 8Cs are definitely more friendly to the average space size wise.

I'm considering switching from the 420s to the 8Cs.

 

[markstein]

The 420 is, as you say, basically the 310 but more better. However they are enormous - the 8Cs are definitely more friendly to the average space size wise.

I'm considering switching from the 420s to the 8Cs.

No doubt - they are big and technical grey boxes (to use nice words). Difficult to integrate into a living room.

Did you listen to the 8C next to the Neumanns and how do you perceive the differences between both?

 

[analogonly]

Genelec?

 

[markstein]

Genelec?

Want to try the S360 and the 8361 as well, but both were not available as demo material from that dealer. I would need to order them. Might do so in the near future.

Regarding the space the speakers and cardboxes are taking right now I fear I cannot test more of these at a time.

 

[dfuller]

No doubt - they are big and technical grey boxes (to use nice words). Difficult to integrate into a living room.

Did you listen to the 8C next to the Neumanns and how do you perceive the differences between both?

I did not, however I did compare a lot of the speakers in that price range. The 8C is of all of them the most similar room to room IME.

 

[markstein]

I did not, however I did compare a lot of the speakers in that price range. The 8C is of all of them the most similar room to room IME.

Brief update:

I listened to all loudspeakers corrected up to 200Hz and both with and without subwoofers.

The Dutch & Dutch 8C has the "clearest" soundstage from the three candidates (KH310, KH410). However, voices sound somehow lifeless to me with the 8C. They do not emotionally touch me.
Another fIndIng: I find myself reducing the volume with the 8C when listening to voices while with the KH420 I tend to increase it (reference point around 75dB(Z) slow).
The bass drivers do suffer from deep wide nulls from 40-60Hz, so distributed subs are a must for me. Meaning, the four bass drivers are only used from 80-100Hz. Makes no sense in my specific case.
So, the Dutch & Dutch will not be my next loudspeaker.

The KH420 on the other hand feels like a large dinosaur. I feel it really needs a technological update (linear x-overs, class D amps). These things get hot in standby 60W power consumption each). However, the mid dome is wonderful and the 10" bass driver has more "punch" than both the 8C and my KH310, while the 8C is more surgical/precise (in a positive sense) but at the same time also less emotional (to me).

If I had to chose between the three - 8C, KH420 and KH310 - taking into account my listening room and also the massive financial investment for a change, I clearly would keep my KH310.

Next candidates will be Genelec (I guess the 8351B), maybe S360, and Geithain 901K (most probably much too big, however, I want to get to know them since a long time).

 

[Chr1]

As an owner of the KH310s, I am glad to hear this.
(FOMO/upgradeitis is real, even if we fight it!)

Bought mine after much deliberation and knowing that I would be buying subs.

Thanks for your insights. Subjective obviously, but useful nonetheless.

 

[markstein]

As an owner of the KH310s, I am glad to hear this.
(FOMO is real, even if we fight it!)

Bought mine after much deliberation and knowing that I would be buying subs.

Thanks for your insights. Subjective obviously, but useful nonetheless.

You are welcome!

Yes, the KH310 are not perfect, however, IMO incredible good for what you pay.

 

[dfuller]

Brief update:

I listened to all loudspeakers corrected up to 200Hz and both with and without subwoofers.

The Dutch & Dutch 8C has the "clearest" soundstage from the three candidates (KH310, KH410). However, voices sound somehow lifeless to me with the 8C. They do not emotionally touch me.
Another fIndIng: I find myself reducing the volume with the 8C when listening to voices while with the KH420 I tend to increase it (reference point around 75dB(Z) slow).
The bass drivers do suffer from deep wide nulls from 40-60Hz, so distributed subs are a must for me. Meaning, the four bass drivers are only used from 80-100Hz. Makes no sense in my specific case.
So, the Dutch & Dutch will not be my next loudspeaker.

The KH420 on the other hand feels like a large dinosaur. I feel it really needs a technological update (linear x-overs, class D amps). These things get hot in standby 60W power consumption each). However, the mid dome is wonderful and the 10" bass driver has more "punch" than both the 8C and my KH310, while the 8C is more surgical/precise (in a positive sense) but at the same time also less emotional (to me).

If I had to chose between the three - 8C, KH420 and KH310 - taking into account my listening room and also the massive financial investment for a change, I clearly would keep my KH310.

Next candidates will be Genelec (I guess the 8351B), maybe S360, and Geithain 901K (most probably much too big, however, I want to get to know them since a long time).

I would suggest you hold off. I spoke with people from Neumann at namm this year, there is something new coming soon ish.

 

[kharan]

Neumann is soon(tm) approaching the levels of Valve's soon(tm).

 

[3125b]

60W power consumption each

That's a lot. I guess they have linear power supplies then, which would be a strange choice.

Geithain 901K (most probably much too big, however, I want to get to know them since a long time).

Please report on them.

 

[burtcote]

Just want to share some of my thoughts:

I’ll soon move into a new home with a big living room and quite some budget for a new setup.

I was comparing 420, 8c and 8631 at the local dealers place:

8c: nice clean setup, my wife would prefer them; I feel the cardioid design is kind of unnatural to my ears and body (bass) - probably there is nothing wrong on paper, but not my cup of tea (I had to think of one session with the kii three some years back where I felt the same - but it’s way too long away for a comparison)

8361: very nice and clean and just perfect (probably too perfect/precise?)

420: very natural and clean, this would be the LS for long listening sessions. My favourite loudspeaker, but I would never get the ok from my wife to put them in our living room. Probably the absence of any digital correction is doing it for me - or is it just the most forgiving sounding?

I’ll wait for a new Neumann LS (310 II or 420 II?) or try 8351 B (with matching interior RAL) plus two subs (hidden somewhere in the room) and then go on.

Ps: I was listing a long long time ago to a 921 from Geithain, probably should take this into consideration as well.

Cheers, Martin

 

[Paul7777x]

Have you considered Buchardts A10 and subs?

Anniversary 10

Active Bookshelf Speakers

buchardtaudio.com

SUB10

Our new Subwoofer with WiSA for wireless use with our active speakers, as well as your standard wired connections for passive systems. It has Bluetooth for app-controlled DSP functions like Room Correction, Manual EQ, variable LLE slider, and more.

buchardtaudio.com

They include a very thorough room correction system too.

 

[dfuller]

That's a lot. I guess they have linear power supplies then, which would be a strange choice.

Nah, switchers. Just AB amps with quite a bit of power (~550w per speaker). I want to say it's four BTL'd TDA7293s for the woofer and two BTL'd TDA7293s for the mid and tweeter.