I'm currently using the analog output from my motherboard, a Gigabyte Z87-HD3, straight to my amp. I've been looking at getting a DAC, probably an SMSL Sanskrit 10 MKII but after quite a bit of reading this forum and others I'm still not sure if it's worth the ~£100 purchase. Has anyone been through this, bought a DAC and got a noticeable improvement in sound quality?
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Upgrade from motherboard output to DAC
- Thread starter oxidising
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Your Gigabyte motherboard uses the older Realtek® ALC892 codec.
This newer and reviewed Gigabyte motherboard uses the ALC1220 w/ the ESS 9118 DAC.
So you can see where a new motherboard is set in the list of DAC and headphone amps tested.
It measures OK in some stuff and pretty bad in others.
Going off this it's reasonable to think you could hear a difference but that depends on your speakers or headphones.
They will need to be decent to hear the difference.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...te-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/
This newer and reviewed Gigabyte motherboard uses the ALC1220 w/ the ESS 9118 DAC.
So you can see where a new motherboard is set in the list of DAC and headphone amps tested.
It measures OK in some stuff and pretty bad in others.
Going off this it's reasonable to think you could hear a difference but that depends on your speakers or headphones.
They will need to be decent to hear the difference.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...te-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/
jasonhanjk
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Your current mobo is -95dBr (A weight). Are you comfortable with the current noise in your system?
BillG
Major Contributor
You may not actually notice a difference in sound quality, even though an external DAC will most likely measure better. If you still wish to upgrade your computer's analog output, the least expensive way to do it would be with an Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle for $9USD. I've done it myself, and I thought I noticed some improvement in clarity. I could well be imagining that, though...
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/
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Are there any particular noise or other issues that you are trying to deal with or eliminate? In other words, how does it sound to you now?
Changes in DAC's don't often lead to easily identifiable differences (at least in my experience) in SQ, unless a problem is being solved.
Could always try it and return it.
- Thread Starter
- #6
I'm happy with it at the moment, but there's always that question of can it be better? I'm also considering a soundcard but then these sometimes seem to suffer from similar (possibly inaudible) defects as onboard audio from Amir's reviews that I've seen. I've got a Rega Elex-R amp and some Dali Oberon 5 speakers so I'd like to make sure I'm giving them a decent input. But then I think I might just be falling into the audiophile trap of never settling.
The SoundBlaster cards have driver issues and have for decades. The EVGA NU Audio has complaints about faint noises and driver issues too. Otherwise I would have one of those. Just saying.
I'm sure there are many happy peeps but gotta mention the issues.
BillG
Major Contributor
An Apple dongle will pass along Redbook transparently without question, and that specification already surpasses human hearing. At $9USD, it's almost an essential upgrade for computer audio, and it certainly won't hurt a budget unless one is in dire circumstances financially.
weasels
Senior Member
I switched from using my motherboard output to a Topping D10.
I used to hear the occasional interference artifact, now I never do. That's the primary difference. I typically listen through 300 ohm headphones driven by a Schiit Magni 3, so I have been attributing any other improvements to having more power available to drive the cans (primarily better bass).
I used to hear the occasional interference artifact, now I never do. That's the primary difference. I typically listen through 300 ohm headphones driven by a Schiit Magni 3, so I have been attributing any other improvements to having more power available to drive the cans (primarily better bass).
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Same here.
@oxidising, if you have problems with interference, then an external DAC can help eliminate that. But if you don't have those kind of problems, and the DAC doesn't have any features you find useful, personally I wouldn't bother.
Nothing noticeable. If I got some training and knew what to listen for, I'd might be able to nitpick something, but I doubt it. It doesn't make me enjoy music more than I did before (other than getting rid of the pesky interference).
Internal sound cards are too much hassle. There's always some kind of issue, for any one intentionally or accidentally fixed via an update (be it divers, Windows or BIOS or whatever), two new ones appear. It's just not worth it, especially since you will still have the potential issue of interferance inside the PC case.
I doubt you`d be able to hear a difference between the OnBoard sound (they usually get about 85dB SINAD) and a very good external DAC feeding the signal into an amp and listening via speakers. With a very good headphone amp and sensitive headphones, you very well might though.
A desktop DAC like the SMSL will of course give you a higher output voltage (~2V, instead of ~1V like most mainboards), so if that is an issue for you currently, an external DAC would make sense.
Also, you could, if your mainboard has an optical output, feed that into the DAC and avoid ground loop issues.
As mentioned above, a dongle could be an option too, depending on what your current problem is - or if there even is one in the first place.
- Thread Starter
- #13
There isn't really a problem, just curiosity as to whether the sound quality could be improved. I'll get the Apple dongle and see if I can hear any difference between it and the onboard sound. Output from the motherboard is lower than the Chromecast audio that I also use quite a lot, but I can just turn up the amp and then I still only get to ~ 11 o clock.
Cool. Let us know how it turns out for you.
Vasr
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Have done quite a bit of experimentation with this as I use a custom-made HTPC for both HT use and music.
Short answer: You may notice a significant difference or you may notice nothing by switching. Get a couple of things that are easier to return and try it out. Keep the one that sounds best after a week or so of usage.
People focus too much on the DAC chip as far as computer audio is concerned - and on the metrics that probably don't make much of a difference and don't apply much in real use. The on-board audio has improved to the point that they are better than the boom-boxes of the past and have the potential to sound as good as any mass-market low-end stereo system. But only in theory...
You need to look at the audio system as a whole including the analog parts and the conditions under which they work. ALC892 on one motherboard may sound great and suck on another one. In general, taking digital out of the PC into an outboard DAC designed for some audiophile aspirations rather than gaming works better. DACs that just work with generic drivers are much more likely to work better than those that require special drivers or software installed on the PC to work (except ASIO driver installations which help).
Things that can affect the sound:
Ground loops : If it exists, this is the most audible part of the induced problems and often the easiest to take care of. Any kind of hiss, hum or any cyclical noises especially when affected by the use of the PC such as video processing, mouse movements, etc are all ground loop based and will be an issue only in fairly efficient speakers. How you fix it depends. It may even transfer over USB.
In some cases, the shield of the outputs is grounded to the chassis (most common with on-board audio). In some cases, the outputs are "lifted" (some sound cards). If you find these ground loop problems, then you would need to "lift" the ground for the PC and connect its chassis to the amp chassis that is grounded. In addition, you may need to ground the shield of the "lifted" analog outs.
In my case, I lifted the ground for the PC and connected the chassis ground of the PC to the Amp chassis and it it has removed all ground loop artifacts.
Noise/Distortion: These can be present because of poor shielding of the audio system or poor quality or wiring of the connectors (which are the cheapest you can find unless you get to the so-called audiophile cards) or because of the quality or level of voltage that can be put out by the PC audio (card or onboard). Most of these systems don't get a clean power supply in a PC environment and don't have explicit filters or conditioning circuitry for power and they get reflected in the output, especially if there are other things drawing power like a video card. But the audible effects of all of these are very subtle, complex and difficult to isolate to one cause. They are not as simple as looking at S/N or THD numbers (measured in ideal conditions). It will manifest in tonal balance (harshness in the highs, lack of bass/mid, listening fatigue, etc). Our ears also get used to the sound and so may find nothing wrong. But switch the audio system to another and it may sound "blacker" or may have less listening fatigue and then you cannot go back again. There is no way to predict this by looking at the S/N or THD specs for any of these things or assuming the relevant metrics are all above audible levels. PC audio is not even close to that ideal in practice. So, only solution is to try out a lot of different options and select one that works best in your system. Some of the internal systems can have poor IMD and non-linearities relative to volume levels and so can sound OK at low volumes or sparse music but sound awful or induce fatigue if you turn the volume up (or need to do it because of the sensitivity of the amp) or if you play busy music. All of these are issues that have been solved long time ago in most "hi-fi" audio gear but internal audio is not even close to having that level of care. They are more like the car audio systems working in hostile environments.
Some of the sound cards with audiophile aspirations try to remove these issues to various degrees (Asus cards with ground/power supply conditioning, EVGA or Sound Blaster cards with EMF shieldings and better components, layout, etc). Whether they work and improve things in your particular configuration is hard to predict. Most of them just slap on a DAC chip with a high spec that they can put on the spec sheet and call it an audiophile card.
Stage imaging: If you have an audio set up with great stage imaging potential (say some planar speakers set up correctly), you can often find significant differences between onboard audio vs sound cards vs outboard DACs. Getting analog out of on-board or sound cards via poor congested connectors can affect crosstalk and even channel balance which affects stage imaging. Most on-board systems and sound cards suffer from this and tend to compress the stage too much into the center (which cannot be fixed) or skewed to one side (which can be adjusted by channel balancing) or blurry staging (which cannot be fixed). No voodoo magic here, these systems don't have good and isolated signal paths between channels. This is where getting digital out into a good outboard DAC designed with sound quality/purity and channel separation (often taken for granted in audio equipment) in mind can help.
Tonal balance: Most computer audio is aimed at gaming or poor speaker systems. So they get intentionally tuned for anything but neutral sound even without using any of the optional processing. So too much of lows in proportion, overly bright which might be confused for clarity/detail, etc. The DAC chip itself is just an innocent bystander in this system.
The resulting quality is not necessarily related to cost or the quality of DAC chip used in any internal audio. Far too many variables.
A good Cmedia based sound card can sound better than onboard audio with a ESS chip and both may sound better than ALC whatever, not because ALC is bad but because the on-board design is bare minimum.
Bottom line: A good outboard DAC connected via optical (or USB if it is not suffering from ground loop issues) or even an average pre-amp/integrated amp with a run-of-the-mill DAC chip will remove all of the above factors that can potentially degrade the audio experience. It is far more difficult to predict whether they will be significant enough to make an audible difference. The more care you have chosen in selecting the rest of the audio system outside of the computer, more likely you will see improvements.
Short answer: You may notice a significant difference or you may notice nothing by switching. Get a couple of things that are easier to return and try it out. Keep the one that sounds best after a week or so of usage.
People focus too much on the DAC chip as far as computer audio is concerned - and on the metrics that probably don't make much of a difference and don't apply much in real use. The on-board audio has improved to the point that they are better than the boom-boxes of the past and have the potential to sound as good as any mass-market low-end stereo system. But only in theory...
You need to look at the audio system as a whole including the analog parts and the conditions under which they work. ALC892 on one motherboard may sound great and suck on another one. In general, taking digital out of the PC into an outboard DAC designed for some audiophile aspirations rather than gaming works better. DACs that just work with generic drivers are much more likely to work better than those that require special drivers or software installed on the PC to work (except ASIO driver installations which help).
Things that can affect the sound:
Ground loops : If it exists, this is the most audible part of the induced problems and often the easiest to take care of. Any kind of hiss, hum or any cyclical noises especially when affected by the use of the PC such as video processing, mouse movements, etc are all ground loop based and will be an issue only in fairly efficient speakers. How you fix it depends. It may even transfer over USB.
In some cases, the shield of the outputs is grounded to the chassis (most common with on-board audio). In some cases, the outputs are "lifted" (some sound cards). If you find these ground loop problems, then you would need to "lift" the ground for the PC and connect its chassis to the amp chassis that is grounded. In addition, you may need to ground the shield of the "lifted" analog outs.
In my case, I lifted the ground for the PC and connected the chassis ground of the PC to the Amp chassis and it it has removed all ground loop artifacts.
Noise/Distortion: These can be present because of poor shielding of the audio system or poor quality or wiring of the connectors (which are the cheapest you can find unless you get to the so-called audiophile cards) or because of the quality or level of voltage that can be put out by the PC audio (card or onboard). Most of these systems don't get a clean power supply in a PC environment and don't have explicit filters or conditioning circuitry for power and they get reflected in the output, especially if there are other things drawing power like a video card. But the audible effects of all of these are very subtle, complex and difficult to isolate to one cause. They are not as simple as looking at S/N or THD numbers (measured in ideal conditions). It will manifest in tonal balance (harshness in the highs, lack of bass/mid, listening fatigue, etc). Our ears also get used to the sound and so may find nothing wrong. But switch the audio system to another and it may sound "blacker" or may have less listening fatigue and then you cannot go back again. There is no way to predict this by looking at the S/N or THD specs for any of these things or assuming the relevant metrics are all above audible levels. PC audio is not even close to that ideal in practice. So, only solution is to try out a lot of different options and select one that works best in your system. Some of the internal systems can have poor IMD and non-linearities relative to volume levels and so can sound OK at low volumes or sparse music but sound awful or induce fatigue if you turn the volume up (or need to do it because of the sensitivity of the amp) or if you play busy music. All of these are issues that have been solved long time ago in most "hi-fi" audio gear but internal audio is not even close to having that level of care. They are more like the car audio systems working in hostile environments.
Some of the sound cards with audiophile aspirations try to remove these issues to various degrees (Asus cards with ground/power supply conditioning, EVGA or Sound Blaster cards with EMF shieldings and better components, layout, etc). Whether they work and improve things in your particular configuration is hard to predict. Most of them just slap on a DAC chip with a high spec that they can put on the spec sheet and call it an audiophile card.
Stage imaging: If you have an audio set up with great stage imaging potential (say some planar speakers set up correctly), you can often find significant differences between onboard audio vs sound cards vs outboard DACs. Getting analog out of on-board or sound cards via poor congested connectors can affect crosstalk and even channel balance which affects stage imaging. Most on-board systems and sound cards suffer from this and tend to compress the stage too much into the center (which cannot be fixed) or skewed to one side (which can be adjusted by channel balancing) or blurry staging (which cannot be fixed). No voodoo magic here, these systems don't have good and isolated signal paths between channels. This is where getting digital out into a good outboard DAC designed with sound quality/purity and channel separation (often taken for granted in audio equipment) in mind can help.
Tonal balance: Most computer audio is aimed at gaming or poor speaker systems. So they get intentionally tuned for anything but neutral sound even without using any of the optional processing. So too much of lows in proportion, overly bright which might be confused for clarity/detail, etc. The DAC chip itself is just an innocent bystander in this system.
The resulting quality is not necessarily related to cost or the quality of DAC chip used in any internal audio. Far too many variables.
A good Cmedia based sound card can sound better than onboard audio with a ESS chip and both may sound better than ALC whatever, not because ALC is bad but because the on-board design is bare minimum.
Bottom line: A good outboard DAC connected via optical (or USB if it is not suffering from ground loop issues) or even an average pre-amp/integrated amp with a run-of-the-mill DAC chip will remove all of the above factors that can potentially degrade the audio experience. It is far more difficult to predict whether they will be significant enough to make an audible difference. The more care you have chosen in selecting the rest of the audio system outside of the computer, more likely you will see improvements.
- Thread Starter
- #17
OK so I've got the Apple dongle hooked up and I think it sounds better than my motherboard output but the difference isn't huge. It's a model A2155 bought from an Apple store here in the UK and it's hooked up through this adaptor. I'm running Manjaro Linux and it was found straight away, I just had to select it in the audio mixer panel. Volume is pretty much the same as my motherboard output and that's fine. I can recommend it if you're having problems with your motherboard output / want to buy some new kit but think a £100 DAC is a waste of money, but if you aren't you're better off saving yourself the £14.
BradleyPNW
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I use a Gigabyte Z170N-Gaming5 for HTPC. Sounds fine. As clear as what I hear in Magnolia/Best Buy demos. REW sweeps with Umm-6 microphone show good frequency response. I hear a significant degradation of sound quality if I use a Fire TV Cube or smartphone as my signal source.
I'd say listen to your speakers then compare them to store demos of speakers in the same quality range to gauge whether or not you should be adding anything new.
I'd say listen to your speakers then compare them to store demos of speakers in the same quality range to gauge whether or not you should be adding anything new.
twsecrest
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Your motherboard comes with the ALC887/897 DSP audio processor (built in DAC function.
Me, I would get a DAC for your current setup.
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