Upgrade from JBL 305 mk2

[mastercosma]

Hello everyone,

I am a happy owner of JBL 305s and I would like to do an upgrade. After digging through several opinions and reviews I shortlisted some monitors and went to the closest shop to try them out. They hooked up the 8030C, Neumann KH-120A and Kali IN5 speakers (they didn't have the IN8s that I wanted to try and 305s which I wanted as reference). However the volume matching was non-existent, the Kalis were unreasonably at a lower volume than the others (like 1/3 of the volume at their max setting), left channel was a little louder than right on all of them, the speakers were at different heights, not angled properly, I did not have a lot of time to test them. Safe to say that it was a very suboptimal scenario to do comparisons.

My impressions were at the beginning that the Neumanns won for top end clarity and soundstage while the Genelecs for mid clarity (I excluded the Kalis because the volume mismatch was excessive), but later in the listening session I liked them more or less equally. I could not explain this change of opinion but I now think that it is mostly related to the fact that I was 20° or so degrees off-axis at 1.5m distance so it could have been the poor placement of both, their high directivity (which I'm not accustomed to coming from 305s) together with me switching position between one and the other that gave me mixed results.
Also both of them seemed to me with a narrower soundstage than my trusty 305s.

Why do you think this strange and varying impressions: was it the suboptimal setting? Are they so similar? Also the soundstage, is it possible that it was narrower than the 305s?

In the meantime I bought two Kalis IN8v2 to test in the same environment as the 305s beause I wanted to give Kalis a fair chance, and they are the cheapest of the bunch

Cheers!

 

[kyuu]

Unfortunately, due to the fact that you're listening to these speakers in a completely different space than where your JBL 305s are, it's basically impossible to really compare them. Especially when you combine that with the fact that the setup is obviously seriously compromised at the store, plus your memory of how the JBLs sound doesn't survive anywhere near long enough to accurately compare them even if you were going to a store that perfectly replicated your home room and setup.

Really, if you want to truly compare speakers you need to have them setup in your space with the ability to rapidly A/B them with your current speakers. Otherwise, you're going to have to accept that any comparison shopping you do is inherently flawed.

One thing I would ask: if you're happy with the JBL 305, why are you looking to upgrade? What is it you are wanting to accomplish? While all the speakers you're looking at are good, it's not a given that they're necessarily going to sound much, if any, better than the 305. It's an objectively very good speaker, with its only major flaws being a limited ability to achieve high SPLs for far-field listening and a bit of hiss. It could also use a subwoofer to round out the lowest octave or two.

 

[mastercosma]

One thing I would ask: if you're happy with the JBL 305, why are you looking to upgrade? What is it you are wanting to accomplish? While all the speakers you're looking at are good, it's not a given that they're necessarily going to sound much, if any, better than the 305. It's an objectively very good speaker, with its only major flaws being a limited ability to achieve high SPLs for far-field listening and a bit of hiss. It could also use a subwoofer to round out the lowest octave or two.

I want to test the law of diminishing returns

Jk, I wanted to test the sound differences between my setup and a more costly one, considering that I am just at the bottom of the price range.
Additionally, I'm planning the build of an Atmos system and in that situation I would be 1.5-2.5m away from the speakers so adding SPL would be a welcome future-proofing for that scenario (I also have some doubts regarding that setup too, I explained those here).
I guess that I would like more definition in the bass region as well, but I think that this problem is mostly related to the acoustic treatment (or lacking thereof) in my room.

Really, if you want to truly compare speakers you need to have them setup in your space with the ability to rapidly A/B them with your current speakers. Otherwise, you're going to have to accept that any comparison shopping you do is inherently flawed.

Then this comparison will have to wait because the only way I see it possible is by buying the speakers and returning them. I'm going to check if some dealer is willing to lend me a pair of KH 120s but I seriously doubt that.

Maybe some member in Piemonte, Italy can give me some hints.

 

[kyuu]

Jk, I wanted to test the sound differences between my setup and a more costly one, considering that I am just at the bottom of the price range.

Hey, no judgement here. Even though I'm quite sure I'll be very satisfied with the sound from my soon-to-be-built 5-channel system where I spent $350 per speaker (Revel W553L across the front and Revel C363 for the surrounds), I've already looked at what an "upgrade" would look like. Sometimes you just have an itch and the cash to burn.

I guess that I would like more definition in the bass region as well, but I think that this problem is mostly related to the acoustic treatment (or lacking thereof) in my room.

Your best bet here would be some flavor of room correction system. Acoustic treatment for the bass is... problematic.

Then this comparison will have to wait because the only way I see it possible is by buying the speakers and returning them. I'm going to check if some dealer is willing to lend me a pair of KH 120s but I seriously doubt that.

Yes, that's the annoying thing about shopping for speakers no question. Even before brick & mortar became second-string to online sales, auditioning speakers in the space they will be used in, which is the only proper way to audition them, was always difficult to impossible. There are retailers like Crutchfield that make it easy and relatively risk-free to try out equipment in your home, but I dunno if there's anything like that available in Italy. Specialized dealers can be helpful in that regard also.

Ultimately if you want to proceed, there certainly doesn't seem like there's any way the KH 120 could be a downgrade in any way. Based on the review, it might actually have a little more SPL available before limiting/clipping kicks in than the JBL 305p also.

 

[mastercosma]

Sometimes you just have an itch and the cash to burn.

And a will to improve, although now I'm thinking that the biggest improvement would be with a sub or a bigger speaker. I'm guessing the on-the-way kalis will help me make my mind.

Hey, no judgement here. Even though I'm quite sure I'll be very satisfied with the sound from my soon-to-be-built 5-channel system where I spent $350 per speaker (Revel W553L across the front and Revel C363 for the surrounds), I've already looked at what an "upgrade" would look like.

Dang, that sounds like an awesome project and got me thinking again between the active vs passive speakers question again for my Atmos. When I thought about it the first time I concluded that since the 305s are a damn good bang-for-buck, spending more on the DSP would have not been a problem. Now that I'm considering more costly active monitors and seeing that the DSP would likely cost >1000€ even for the active monitors, I might change the course of action, and go for passives and a receiver like the AVR-X8500H that I could easily find for 2000-2500€ (or about 3 x KH-120s).
The measurements of those Revels look good too! Did you have a listen to a system like the one you are building?

Your best bet here would be some flavor of room correction system. Acoustic treatment for the bass is... problematic.

I hope it is not going to be too much hassle, I'm going to DIY some thicc bass trap columns or panels soon.

Yes, that's the annoying thing about shopping for speakers no question. Even before brick & mortar became second-string to online sales, auditioning speakers in the space they will be used in, which is the only proper way to audition them, was always difficult to impossible. There are retailers like Crutchfield that make it easy and relatively risk-free to try out equipment in your home, but I dunno if there's anything like that available in Italy. Specialized dealers can be helpful in that regard also.

That's very annoying, and why I tend to check reviews and opinions over here. I don't think there is something like Crutchfield here, at least not that I know of, but I didn't look too much, I will look into this more tomorrow.

Ultimately if you want to proceed, there certainly doesn't seem like there's any way the KH 120 could be a downgrade in any way. Based on the review, it might actually have a little more SPL available before limiting/clipping kicks in than the JBL 305p also.

At the moment I will wait for the kalis, then I will probably try the sub (if the kalis don't steal my heart, and pockets).

 

[J.M. Noble]

This prompted me to do another comparison.

So: $250 vs $2000 (what I actually paid, including amplification) ... the Dynaudio Evoke 20s win, but they are maybe 50% better rather than 800%. The JBLs are nice in medium/far field situations!

The LSR10S sub will make the 305Ps sound even better. I have one and don't need a comparison to know it kills the pretty little Dynaudio Sub250 Compact in my listening room.

 

[kyuu]

Dang, that sounds like an awesome project and got me thinking again between the active vs passive speakers question again for my Atmos. When I thought about it the first time I concluded that since the 305s are a damn good bang-for-buck, spending more on the DSP would have not been a problem. Now that I'm considering more costly active monitors and seeing that the DSP would likely cost >1000€ even for the active monitors, I might change the course of action, and go for passives and a receiver like the AVR-X8500H that I could easily find for 2000-2500€ (or about 3 x KH-120s).

Yeah, actives are awesome and can be really killer bang-for-the-buck for a desktop or even midfield 2.1 system. Once you start looking into multichannel and getting speakers that can deliver decent SPLs for far-field, plus DSP/room correction, the bang-for-buck starts to turn back towards passives, IMO. Not that I have anything against actives even for multichannel; actives certainly have their advantages. It just starts to become more difficult and costly, generally.

The measurements of those Revels look good too! Did you have a listen to a system like the one you are building?

I did not. The difficulties of auditioning speakers become even more acute when you're doing in-walls. Between measurements, Revel's reputation and process (they do blind testing of all their products against the competition before releasing them, though of course that would've been back in 2012 for the W553L), and a blind test related by an ASR member (mentioned early on in the review thread) where the W553L came out on top, I feel pretty confident about the choice. Using in-ceilings for the surrounds is a compromise for sure, and Toole would never want to come listen to my system, but I feel it's the right compromise for my space.

At the moment I will wait for the kalis, then I will probably try the sub (if the kalis don't steal my heart, and pockets).

Let us know how it goes with those Kalis (the IN-5 v2, I presume?).

 

[mastercosma]

This prompted me to do another comparison.

So: $250 vs $2000 (what I actually paid, including amplification) ... the Dynaudio Evoke 20s win, but they are maybe 50% better rather than 800%. The JBLs are nice in medium/far field situations!

The LSR10S sub will make the 305Ps sound even better. I have one and don't need a comparison to know it kills the pretty little Dynaudio Sub250 Compact in my listening room.

Thank you for your comparison, that kind of difference between money spent and quality is really astonishing to me. Another contributing factor is the "sound" of the listening room itself, it changes speaker impressions (and measurements) a lot I think.

Yeah, actives are awesome and can be really killer bang-for-the-buck for a desktop or even midfield 2.1 system. Once you start looking into multichannel and getting speakers that can deliver decent SPLs for far-field, plus DSP/room correction, the bang-for-buck starts to turn back towards passives, IMO. Not that I have anything against actives even for multichannel; actives certainly have their advantages. It just starts to become more difficult and costly, generally.

That is a good observation, however I will reply to this in the other thread regarding the Atmos setup

I did not. The difficulties of auditioning speakers become even more acute when you're doing in-walls. Between measurements, Revel's reputation and process (they do blind testing of all their products against the competition before releasing them, though of course that would've been back in 2012 for the W553L), and a blind test related by an ASR member (mentioned early on in the review thread) where the W553L came out on top, I feel pretty confident about the choice. Using in-ceilings for the surrounds is a compromise for sure, and Toole would never want to come listen to my system, but I feel it's the right compromise for my space.

Yeah I am curious to see how the setup for the measurements of in-wall speaker is performed, never have gone into that rabbit hole. In any case the plan looks awesome!

Let us know how it goes with those Kalis (the IN-5 v2, I presume?).

The IN-8 v2s, go big or go home! I know it is not a fair comparison regarding bass especially but I am trying to keep bass extension out of the equation either by EQing it out by ear (not very scientific, I will do better when my UMIK-1 will arrive in the next days) or by just comparing them in the mid to high regions. It has been 2 days that I'm listening and comparing the two. Their position is not ideal since they are 0.6m apart from one another (the 305s are too).

And now to the "take with a grain of salt", "my room is not treated", "IMHO" comparison between 305s and IN8v2s: I would say that the biggest difference is in mids clarity, it really is night and day at least to my ears. You really can hear that the IN8v2s have more body, for instance in pieces where the piano is the main instrument the sound of the instrument is much more realistic. Also instrument separation is way clearer in the IN8s than in 305s, you can test this in busy arrangements like orchestral pieces. In general I would say that I prefer the timbre of the IN8s with respect to the 305s, I would maybe tame down some mid frequencies as in some trumpet solo pieces it would come out as nasal or maybe it was just the getting used to the comparison.

However the main dealbreaker for me is soundstage: the difference is sometimes subtle but some pieces where the sounds are wide (like "Dreamer" - Supertramp, "In the stone" - Earth, Wind & Fire, "Hideaway" - Jacob Collier) really make the 305s shine. Soundstage was the thing that changed my view of monitors when I got my 305s.
The difference with the IN8s is of course not extreme, the IN8s are still capable speakers soundstage-wise but that small difference threw me out of the envelopment that I normally felt with the 305s. I could tell that some sound was coming from a speaker (sometimes this effect is a good thing, for example with solo piano or small environment recordings, it gets more intimate).
Another complaint is that if you get off-axis from the optimal listening position, the soundstage falls apart which would not be a problem if I didn't need to sometimes get off-axis to jam on the piano or even just if I want to share the experience to someone on my side (e.g. production or home theater). I tried pointing them 10-15° out the axis as suggested by the measurements, it did get better but never beating the 305s.

I really wish there was a speaker with the same tonality and separation that the IN8s have, combined with the wide luscious soundstage of the 305s!

Anyway, I think I will gather more observations in the next days, maybe some measurements with the UMIK-1 if it arrives in time and make a post about this.