Upgrade from Audio-Technica ATH-M40X for mixing? $200 budget

[mushjoon]

Hello everyone, first time posting here.

I've had Audio-Technica ATH-M40X for 6 years now which had to be super-glued a few times when its parts were falling apart etc...

I'm a beginner who's trying to learn mixing by working on my death metal album and I thought that investing on a good pair of headphones that can provide a clear picture of how my music actually sounds would be a first step toward making a better record.

Although I'm aware that mixing with speakers is superior than mixing on headphones, I can't afford them yet or have a decent room for monitor speakers.

Since my main purpose is to use the cans for mixing process, it would be great if I could get some recommendations for relatively "neutral" sounding headphones within $200 USD. (I have to pay extra import taxes if it exceeds 200 bucks)

I understand that 200 bucks isn't going to land me on a phenomenal deal but I'm also willing to put the EQ-mods recommended by the admin and other members in other review posts.

I'm currently eyeing on Massdrop HD58X but if there's a better choice, please let me know. Thank you!

 

[litemotiv]

Although I'm aware that mixing with speakers is superior than mixing on headphones

It's not really, many producers primarily rely on headphones during mixing. You indeed need something that sounds neutral and lets you hear the balance in the mix well, this is easier to achieve with a pair of headphones than with speakers.

Studio headphones don't have to be expensive, for around $200 you can get a pair of pretty good ones. You could consider something like the Focal Listen, originally priced slightly above $200 but there are some good deals to be found now and then:

 

[Doodski]

You indeed need something that sounds neutral

Are there even headphones other than the DCA Stealth that do sound neutral and have good frequency response out of the box? I thought they all need PEQ. Am I missing something in the definition of neutral?

 

[litemotiv]

Are there even headphones other than the DCA Stealth that do sound neutral and have good frequency response out of the box? I thought they all need PEQ. Am I missing something in the definition of neutral?

Yes you're right, neutral is perhaps a difficult term. Revealing might suit better? Similar with classic monitoring speakers like the Yamaha NS10, they don't have to measure completely neutral or sound particularly nice to be very suitable for mixing:

How ugly made history: the story of the Yamaha NS10

You'd be hard pressed to find a mixing engineer who hasn't had their time with the Yamaha NS10. Here's how they became an industry standard.

happymag.tv

 

[Doodski]

Yes you're right, neutral is perhaps a difficult term. Revealing might suit better? Similar with classic monitoring speakers like the Yamaha NS10, they don't have to measure completely neutral or sound particularly nice to be very suitable for mixing:

How ugly made history: the story of the Yamaha NS10

You'd be hard pressed to find a mixing engineer who hasn't had their time with the Yamaha NS10. Here's how they became an industry standard.

happymag.tv

I've used the NS-10 extensively. They are punchy and mid'rangy I find. What do you suggest for more money like the $200 budget might allow? I'm a Sennheiser Dood and PEQ like crazy so not sure if what I like is what he needs.

 

[ZolaIII]

Don't even try to mix only on hedaphones!
You need a bad speakers like NS10's in your case ideally bigger paper ones (because the tempo in metal) where you will do mids, highs and bass impact (basically 90% of work). You ideally need two hedaphones one for a soundstage and final verification and one for bass (flat opposite to preference).
Unfortunately bill for all is about 1100$ (speakers 700$, two hedaphones each around 200$ and without other equipment (DAC, ADC's or amp's) as new.
Save money and buy one by one.
There are and earphones with paper cone drivers but I still wouldn't recommend them as substitute for speakers at all (all do it can be done by someone who has a lot of experience).

Best regards.

 

[litemotiv]

What do you suggest for more money like the $200 budget might allow?

It might depend on taste and preference, but also the type of music that you are mainly mixing. I don't think there is a one size fits all solution, best is to try a few out and see which ones you prefer, this includes aspects like comfort and fit which are important for longer mixing sessions.

I personally don't subscribe to what @Zolalll mentions, but there is ofcourse a distinction between mixing and mastering. For the mixing stage, what appeared to be the focus of the thread, i know there are a lot of producers that rely mainly or solely on headphones. For mastering it's a good idea to have a secondary source for reference, which could be a pair of monitor speakers but hifi speakers may also work well.

 

[ZolaIII]

@litemotiv mastering is when you try to improve your mixing.
Edit: when you have mastered both mastering and your standard equipment you can try to do it on single hedaphones from your standard equipment to hell you can do it even on memory base's (bunch of old producers and tone guys) and be successful to certain amount. Unfortunately it doesn't go the other way around.

Best regards.

 

[mushjoon]

It's not really, many producers primarily rely on headphones during mixing. You indeed need something that sounds neutral and lets you hear the balance in the mix well, this is easier to achieve with a pair of headphones than with speakers.

Studio headphones don't have to be expensive, for around $200 you can get a pair of pretty good ones. You could consider something like the Focal Listen, originally priced slightly above $200 but there are some good deals to be found now and then:

Thank you for your suggestion. Unfortunately, this one looks like I can only bid on it instead of purchasing it right away like Amazon or other retail websites.

@litemotiv mastering is when you try to improve your mixing.

I'm currently trying to focus on only mixing because I heard that mastering is whole another field of study. So, I'm just gonna send my mixed tracks to a pro mastering engineer when I'm done.

 

[WickedInsignia]

You could consider something like the Focal Listen, originally priced slightly above $200 but there are some good deals to be found now and then:

Cannot recommend the Listen nor Listen Professional. I have the Listen, and although the midrange is nice it's definitely not neutral, with under-represented bass and some strange scoops in the FR. It also has awful comfort issues, the headband is very stiff and discomfort from it is widely reported. I got it for a 75% discount and still felt like I wasted money.
Here's the FR for the Pro, as measured by Crinacle. Both HPs sound different from each other but this doesn't inspire confidence:

@mushjoon you would be better off investing in a 58x or a 6xx and EQ'ing them (depending on the genre you work in, although they sound great stock.). They respond well to EQ with enough power (although I'm no expert here). Another viable option is the K371, which was reviewed very well here and has an accurate Harman-neutral response out of the box. I recommend trying these before buying, the K371 has severe fit/seal issues for many people.
Some other cheap options would be the Shure SRH440 (VERY close to Harman, although with a spicy upper treble peak and a weak build) and the SRH840 (V-shaped but very nicely done and neutral enough).

 

[ZolaIII]

@mushjoon unfortunately it's a same field.
Tell you what (and how) you can do job done with two hedaphones but it won't be easy. At least guy who needs to do mastering won't spenk you.

Get a Creative Aurvana Air earbuds. Those are open and you will use it as substitute for N10 and individual leveling and monitoring. Those don't sound exactly as speakers but are close enough to that particularly horrible one's regarding; brightnes, mids evaluation and to how far bass goes and its right time domain. You won't love them and you will have to force yourself to completely adapt to them. Other pair should be a close back preference driven like those cheap AKG ones (K371) that fit Harman curve. Those you will use for verification (not critical) and isolated monitoring.
It even fits the bill but AKG one's won't last long and it's not exactly a gear to pass on (which you will be able to use later on), just a substitute.

 

[adama99]

I'd recommend the HD 560S over the 58X for their imaging and soundstage properties. Additionally, you can likely buy the 560S domestically.

Since you're accustomed to the M40X, you might want to consider the M50X. They have a bit too much high bass, but for me an aftermarket pad swap solved that issue and offered much improved comfort over the factory pads. That said, if you don't need the isolation of closed-back headphones you will almost always get better sound for a given price range with open backs.

At that price you could also consider the DT 880, but you will want to address the treble peak (aftermarket pads could help here, also).

 

[edahl]

Are there even headphones other than the DCA Stealth that do sound neutral and have good frequency response out of the box? I thought they all need PEQ. Am I missing something in the definition of neutral?

AKG K371?

 

[ZolaIII]

AKG K371?

Guy's that's not neutral but preference, neutral would be flat bass. There are even dirty cheap IEM's that are good for that but usually a crap in everything else.

 

[anmpr1]

I've had Audio-Technica ATH-M40X for 6 years now which had to be super-glued a few times when its parts were falling apart etc...

I can sympathize. I have a '40' that is some years old. About two or three years ago the headband started to disintegrate. Left black foam-like particles on my hair and hands. Very annoying. Amazingly, on the on-line marketplace, I found an outfit in China that sold wrap-around headband replacements. I think it was a couple of dollars, with free shipping. How they could do that and make a profit is something I'll not hope to understand, anytime soon.

I use my AT for monitoring my Katana modeling amp, so I'm not interested in anything 'neutral', whatever that means. The amp is pretty much a distortion factory from the get go, and the ATs are comfortable enough.

On a related note, I recently threw away a Sennheiser HD-545 I bought (it seems) decades ago. Even the Superglue wasn't working on them, anymore. LOL I bought back when a mass-market dynamic headphone wasn't expected to cost a thousand dollars. To me, headphones are about the most unnatural way of listening to music. I don't understand the big appeal, other than for times when you need to listen without disturbing others.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Robert C]

Standard studio headphones used throughout the industry are the Sony MDR-V6 (aka 7506) and/or Beyerdynamic DT 770.

 

[bravomail]

Do know that M40x r fun headphones, not necessarily good for mixing. Try Sennheiser HD6xx or HD58x. Or AKG K7xx. if u go cheap - Sony MDR 7506, good for monitoring, good soundstage, but boring for listening.

 

[ZolaIII]

Do know that M40x r fun headphones, not necessarily good for mixing. Try Sennheiser HD6xx or HD58x. Or AKG K7xx. if u go cheap - Sony MDR 7506, good for monitoring, good soundstage, but boring for listening.

Yes a Sony from that series is actually good the one that doesn't flip (Japanese only before) but those aren't exactly cheap (can't remember model number).

 

[mushjoon]

@mushjoon unfortunately it's a same field.
Tell you what (and how) you can do job done with two hedaphones but it won't be easy. At least guy who needs to do mastering won't spenk you.

Get a Creative Aurvana Air earbuds. Those are open and you will use it as substitute for N10 and individual leveling and monitoring. Those don't sound exactly as speakers but are close enough to that particularly horrible one's regarding; brightnes, mids evaluation and to how far bass goes and its right time domain. You won't love them and you will have to force yourself to completely adapt to them. Other pair should be a close back preference driven like those cheap AKG ones (K371) that fit Harman curve. Those you will use for verification (not critical) and isolated monitoring.
It even fits the bill but AKG one's won't last long and it's not exactly a gear to pass on (which you will be able to use later on), just a substitute.

Using earbuds as a substitute for Yamaha NS10? That's very interesting. Of course, since I have never owned those famous speakers or have the enough knowledge to tell whether if the frequency responses of those two match each other or not, it's a bit difficult for me to process it, if you know what I mean...

But since I can get Aurvana Air in Korea (it seems Creative doesn't sell them anymore on Amazon), I'm willing to take your advice.

Also, AKG K371 definitely fits the Harman curve nicely even though Amazon review section is filled with numerous complaints about its poor build quality despite its excellent sound.

Do you think I should get Senn HD560S instead or just buy K371 for now and save up till I'm able to buy NS10s, amp, and acoustic treatment for my room?

 

[mushjoon]

I'd recommend the HD 560S over the 58X for their imaging and soundstage properties. Additionally, you can likely buy the 560S domestically.

Since you're accustomed to the M40X, you might want to consider the M50X. They have a bit too much high bass, but for me an aftermarket pad swap solved that issue and offered much improved comfort over the factory pads. That said, if you don't need the isolation of closed-back headphones you will almost always get better sound for a given price range with open backs.

At that price you could also consider the DT 880, but you will want to address the treble peak (aftermarket pads could help here, also).

I've checked some other posts about HD 560S and just like you suggested, it seems like a better choice than HD 58X. Thank you!

I think I'm done with Audio-Technica cans for now hahaha. I just wanna try different products made with different technology from other companies lol.

I have also considered buying Beyer DT880 600 ohm but since I'm using a Behringer UMC404HD audio interface for my ATH-M40X, I'm worried that my interface might not have enough voltage output to drive DT880 properly.