Upgrade Elac DBR62 to floorstander.

[SHB]

Let me throw a wrench into your thought process.

Buy 2 more subs.

The reasons:
• You have decent small speakers
• Sub/sat systems, when properly designed, out perform tower speakers of the same price by a good margin
• Replacing $800/pair book shelf’s with $800-900/pair towers is not likely to improve your system as much as more subs will
• 3 subs in a left/center/right or left/right with a rear mono sub will drastically increase your systems dynamic headroom
• Having stereo subs means you can crossover the subs much higher (200Hz or so) and relieve the mains from having to reproduce any low bass content. This will reduce the distortion in the mains by an order of magnitude. (You are running a high pass filter on the mains, correct?)
• 3 subs will allow you to attain smoother in-room frequency response in the low end. The old sub can be crossed over lower than the stereo subs and be placed wherever it works best to tame room modes.
• A modular system is easier to upgrade and fine tune

What you want to achieve is a 20-20kHz system. While budget subs can’t really do that completely, they can get you most of the way there. Also, most music doesn’t go much below 30Hz (a low B on a 5 string bass is 30.5Hz).

RSL, Monoprice Monolith and Klipsch make subs that can fit your budget.

Two more 10” subs, carefully integrated into your current rig, will totally transform your listening experience.

A word of advice: think more about designing a system and less about the individual parts of it.

 

[Bernard23]

When I hear UK I think of B&K. Have you checked them out? I'm not familiar with their current offerings.

There is also XTZ from Sweden.

BK Electronics. Yes, but not really thought about it until now.

 

[Bernard23]

Let me throw a wrench into your thought process.

Buy 2 more subs.

The reasons:
• You have decent small speakers
• Sub/sat systems, when properly designed, out perform tower speakers of the same price by a good margin
• Replacing $800/pair book shelf’s with $800-900/pair towers is not likely to improve your system as much as more subs will
• 3 subs in a left/center/right or left/right with a rear mono sub will drastically increase your systems dynamic headroom
• Having stereo subs means you can crossover the subs much higher (200Hz or so) and relieve the mains from having to reproduce any low bass content. This will reduce the distortion in the mains by an order of magnitude. (You are running a high pass filter on the mains, correct?)
• 3 subs will allow you to attain smoother in-room frequency response in the low end. The old sub can be crossed over lower than the stereo subs and be placed wherever it works best to tame room modes.
• A modular system is easier to upgrade and fine tune

What you want to achieve is a 20-20kHz system. While budget subs can’t really do that completely, they can get you most of the way there. Also, most music doesn’t go much below 30Hz (a low B on a 5 string bass is 30.5Hz).

RSL, Monoprice Monolith and Klipsch make subs that can fit your budget.

Two more 10” subs, carefully integrated into your current rig, will totally transform your listening experience.

A word of advice: think more about designing a system and less about the individual parts of it.

Interesting spanner - my feeling is that I could add a dozen Wharfedale subs and still not get much 20hz action. The other major constraint is space, although it's a large room, it's already full; I only have space for one extra box, and I'm not so wedded to audiophile stuff that I'm going to start getting rid of other furniture etc etc.

So, my current strategy is to replace the current puny sub with something much more capable - a BK XXLS400 or a Monolith Plus. I haven't found any independent measurements yet, but the paper specs look fine.

Monolith Plus-FF MK2 Black Ash

bkelectronics.co.uk

XXLS400-FF Cherry

bkelectronics.co.uk

 

[Cantrememberpassword]

I'm also considering upgrade my DBR62. My current amp. is Accuphase E280, my room is only like 20 m2, but I don't think wall reflection will be a problem because I have lot of stuff in the room.
My options are:
1. ATC SCM25A, in this case i will sell my amp. or just use it as pre-amp;
2. Harbeth SHL5 XD2;
3. Wharfedale Super Linton
4. Dyaudio Special 40 or a used C1, but C1 maybe little bit difficult for E280

I didn't here any of them yet, could ask everyone's opinion, Thanks!

 

[Chromatischism]

I'm also considering upgrade my DBR62. My current amp. is Accuphase E280, my room is only like 20 m2, but I don't think wall reflection will be a problem because I have lot of stuff in the room.
My options are:
1. ATC SCM25A, in this case i will sell my amp. or just use it as pre-amp;
2. Harbeth SHL5 XD2;
3. Wharfedale Super Linton
4. Dyaudio Special 40 or a used C1, but C1 maybe little bit difficult for E280

I didn't here any of them yet, could ask everyone's opinion, Thanks!

I would recommend you pass on all of those and look at the class of speakers I mentioned above, all of which have better sound quality.

 

[Bernard23]

There's another sub option, since I'm using a, Wiim ultra as my preamp with Roomfit and sub management the it's possible to add 2 x Wiim subs. They can be connected wirelessly which opens up huge potential for standing wave correctiin.

They're only 300W and -3dB at 25Hz so not as low as the others I've looked at, but maybe adding 2 or even three smaller subs is more effective than one monstrous device.

 

[Bernard23]

I would recommend you pass on all of those and look at the class of speakers I mentioned above, all of which have better sound quality.

Do they all also require a sub? Maybe the Buchardt might not from whet I've read but the others?

 

[Chromatischism]

Do they all also require a sub? Maybe the Buchardt might not from whet I've read but the others?

In my experience, the S400 MK1 didn't, but the MK2 lightened up the deep bass somewhat. It doesn't give the same sub-bass rumble but it's overall a better speaker, mostly in the 2 kHz area (the crossover). Note I use Dynamic EQ; without it, your results will be different.

The MK3 will certainly deliver the goods with the 7.5" Satori and larger cabinet, I'm sure.

 

[Bernard23]

Here's another hybrid option I've been thinking about

Option 1: Ultra as single preamp source

1 x wired BK XXLS400 in whatever position is available. I'm constrained by having a door right in between my mains so having to run wires over a door frame is less than ideal.

1 x Wiim sub connected wirelessly, it could sit in the centre of the room next to my coffee table

Option 2: Daisy chain a second Wiim streamer (mini? Pro?) and sync with the Ultra. Not sure if that's possible but someone posted that as a solution to a 2.2 setup in the Wiim forum
1 x BK wired to Ultra
1x BK wired to satellite Wiim device.

Option 3
Consider alternative floorstanders for what is now significant cost creep up to around £1200 that don't "need" a sub

 

[Chromatischism]

I will recommend against collecting different subs. Keep them equal.

 

[Jpplummer]

As good as the DBR62s are they're a bit small in my room, and I have to use a sub to gain any sensation of sub bass, but it's limited as I'm using a wharfedale SW 150 sub which is pretty much finished by 30Hz.

Considering a pair of floor standers, polk R500 or even the 600 on some good deals at the moment, pretty sure I've read positive comments about them in comparison to the Elacs.
Anything else to consider around £700 (don't mind buying slightly used)?

www.tbisubwoofers.com

 

[Corvuscorone]

Looking at the specs, we have a 109 lb sub with a 13.8" driver, roughly 24x18x22 inches, ported, retailing for $2200 USD. 800-watt amp, lowest extension mode results in 17 Hz +/- 3 dB. I always recommend the lowest extension mode for sound quality.

Specs-wise it may be roughly comparable to an HSU VTF-3 MK5. Anyone else agree? I personally wouldn't buy Arendal subs because of how expensive they are, but they seem nicely made.


Of course.


There are always improvements to be made as you climb the speaker ladder. But at least with the ELACs you already nailed the bang for the buck, so it's a steeper hill to climb. I would say between dropping $1-1.5k on a sub vs $1-1.5k on a speaker upgrade, I would say the sub will get you a more noticeable improvement if you can nail down the placement and EQ to get the most out of it.

And I speak from experience. I had the tower version of your speakers in for testing against the Buchardts, and while the Buchardts were the more enjoyable listen, with the Rythmiks on, I can't imagine that someone who didn't know the difference wouldn't be satisfied. The DBR/DFR are really good, though bass is limited from them.

So to be worth it, I think you'd need to be at the Ascend Sierra-2EX V2, Buchardt S400 MK2, KEF R3 Meta, Ascilab C6B level of speaker for it to be really worth it. I wouldn't bother with any speaker in between those and what you have now.

I've had a used HSU VTF-3 mk3 for a few years now and have been very happy with it. It goes down to at least 10 HZ in my room. When watching some movies my couch shakes like I'm in an earthquake .

 

[Bernard23]

I'm still trying to get a real world reference, on the basis that extended bass alone doesn't guarantee overall satisfaction; so let's compare say a KEF R7 meta to a DBR6 plus a competent 12" sub. Sure the sub will be flatter to 30Hz, but surely the improvement across the rest of the spectrum be a more satisfying proposition?
There a pair local to me barely used that I could stretch to but would forego the sub.
Another option is used Ascilabs F6B plus a sub for around £1500 which I'm pretty sure would be step up.
In an ideal world, I wouldn't need a sub because of the hassle of placement and wiring routing etc. What options are there in the UK (so forget some of the more esoteric US brands, they're simply not economically feasible unless there is a UK distributor / retailer) for floorstanders under £2k other than the Kef R or new Q series?

 

[Achievement Undone]

Why not get the sub that's already made to go with your speakers? I own the 3030 (Paired with the floor-standing version of your bookshelfs), and am pretty happy with it. It goes low, it goes loud. The app is pretty good also - lots of fine-tuning at your disposal. Built-in basic room correction. The only downside, based on one of your comments above, is that it's not really diminutive in size.

 

[Bernard23]

Why not get the sub that's already made to go with your speakers? I own the 3030 (Paired with the floor-standing version of your bookshelfs), and am pretty happy with it. It goes low, it goes loud. The app is pretty good also - lots of fine-tuning at your disposal. Built-in basic room correction. The only downside, based on one of your comments above, is that it's not really diminutive in size.

Elac 3030? Haven't even looked at it, but an interesting option.

EDIT: it's a bit of a beast! Discontinued though, so not many around.

 

[Achievement Undone]

Elac 3030? Haven't even looked at it, but an interesting option.

EDIT: it's a bit of a beast! Discontinued though, so not many around.

It's little brother is available, and apparently on sale as well. Note that I have never heard or used this version, but the specs seem to be in live with your initial request.

ELAC Debut S10.2

 

[Bernard23]

It's little brother is available, and apparently on sale as well. Note that I have never heard or used this version, but the specs seem to be in live with your initial request.

ELAC Debut S10.2

I can fit the large one in, it's fitting in more than one that's an issue. Anyway, I found a newish used one sold from a retailer online for £325 so that's done, found one new at £749 so a considerable saving. I just hope i can find a <6m RCA cable now to route over the door frame. I'm so tempted to add a pair of AsciLab F6B too that I've found. I need to close this page before I get carried away, but thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Chromatischism]

I'm still trying to get a real world reference, on the basis that extended bass alone doesn't guarantee overall satisfaction; so let's compare say a KEF R7 meta to a DBR6 plus a competent 12" sub. Sure the sub will be flatter to 30Hz, but surely the improvement across the rest of the spectrum be a more satisfying proposition?

Having had the DFR52, I'm familiar with its sound, and I like it a lot. I also have amazing subbage here with two 15" Rythmiks.

That said, the KEF R7 Meta (not the first R series which was too bright) will offer a smoother listen, without many peaks or dips to speak of. It will provide noticeably better imaging, but maybe a smaller soundstage. It will sound more technically correct. So yes, it may well give a more enjoyable listen.

The question is, how does that compare to the improvement you'll get from subs that are powerful enough to provide authority down to 20 Hz?

That depends on you.

If you are not going to take care to place two subs where they work best together and use room correction to integrate them so they provide a smooth response, then in my opinion, just upgrade the speakers.

But if you will do all of that, the subs will give the better bang for the buck. The overall sound will be better even with your current speakers.

That's my take.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't need a sub because of the hassle of placement and wiring routing etc. What options are there in the UK (so forget some of the more esoteric US brands, they're simply not economically feasible unless there is a UK distributor / retailer) for floorstanders under £2k other than the Kef R or new Q series?

You must be quoting single speaker prices? I would say for the UK, which eliminates Revel and Ascend, I can think of several but I don't know if they would meet the criteria. Arendal, ELAC, and Paradigm. Maybe JBL.

 

[pablolie]

Whether a tower speaker will be an upgrade depends a lot on your room. I find many bookshelf + sub setup sound much, MUCH better than many tower speakers crowded into smaller rooms.

 

[Bernard23]

Having had the DFR52, I'm familiar with its sound, and I like it a lot. I also have amazing subbage here with two 15" Rythmiks.

That said, the KEF R7 Meta (not the first R series which was too bright) will offer a smoother listen, without many peaks or dips to speak of. It will provide noticeably better imaging, but maybe a smaller soundstage. It will sound more technically correct. So yes, it may well give a more enjoyable listen.

The question is, how does that compare to the improvement you'll get from subs that are powerful enough to provide authority down to 20 Hz?

That depends on you.

If you are not going to take care to place two subs where they work best together and use room correction to integrate them so they provide a smooth response, then in my opinion, just upgrade the speakers.

But if you will do all of that, the subs will give the better bang for the buck. The overall sound will be better even with your current speakers.

That's my take.


You must be quoting single speaker prices? I would say for the UK, which eliminates Revel and Ascend, I can think of several but I don't know if they would meet the criteria. Arendal, ELAC, and Paradigm. Maybe JBL.

Generally on the UK speakers are sold per pair. So R7 Meta is around £4k new. Used around half that which is what I was looking at. I was looking at KEF, Wharfedale, Elac, Polk, Klipsch all readily available in the UK.
It's moot now though as I've bought an Elac sub. I'll see how that is an improvement over the current sub I've got and if it is then I'd look at adding another. Possibly moving on the Elac and buying two more current devices.