Upgrade dilemma - would Topping D90 + A90 would be an improvement vs Motu M2 + Magni Heresy for headphones and studio monitors?

[f1shb0n3]

Hi Folks

First I'd like to mention I'm in a pretty happy place right now with my audio setup:
Playing Amazon Music HD on MacBook with Motu M2 connected by XLR to KRK 10s subwoofer and Rokit 8 G2 powered studio monitors and RCA to Magni Heresy. Using a modest set of headphones - Sennheiser HD58x, Hifiman HE-400i, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80ohm, Koss KPH30i, 1More Triple Driver. Motu M2 can drive perfectly fine all headphones except Hifiman HE-400i and 1More Triple Driver for which I use the Heresy.
I have no issues or complaints with my audio quality other than the inconvenience of having to max the volume of my Motu M2 when using Heresy and risking a loud blast from my studio monitors if I forget to dial the volume down before turning them on later.

As many of us here I got badly bitten by the upgrade bug and began my audiofool quest to find ways to improve my equipment with the goal of making it more convenient and enjoyable to listen to music. I do spend my whole day listening to music while working from home so I can easily justify spending $1000+ on equipment if I'm sure it will actually lead to quantifiable improvements in my music listening experience.

I know there are multiple ways I can spend $$$ to improve my audio roughly boiling down to: new studio monitors, new headphones, new DAC/amp. I know my studio monitors are old and not well rated, but they sound well and I like them - the bass response with the KRK 10s is just awesome. I recently got my HD58x and the Heresy amp which "unlocked" the HE-400i to its potential and don't feel like getting even more cans at this point.

I have a significant uneasiness about Motu M2's DAC even though from all accounts it is supposed to be one of the better DACs on a budget USB audio interface at the moment. I'm also familiar with the common opinion that all DACs sound the same and I agree to some extent. I got a simple A/B switcher, wrote some scripts and did a few level-matched A/B tests:
- I could not tell the difference between the sound of Motu M2 and the Apple USB-C to 3.5mm adapter.
- When comparing Motu M2 and my very old PreSonus AudioBox USB interface though I could tell them apart every single time. The differences were subtle but profound - the timbre of vocals was so much better on the Motu M2 that it sounds "passionate" vs "flat" on the Presonus AudioBox and the music sounded overall more "mellow" on Motu vs "harsh" on Presonus.
To clarify - I did the Motu M2 vs PreSonus comparison in a blind A/B test - level-matched to 1dB using an app on my phone (I know not perfect). I wrote a script to switch to a random interface and a script to switch to the next one. Switching to a random one at first with a few switches to the next one I was able to identify which one was which by comparing the "harshness" of the sound and the "passion" of the vocals. If someone is interested in the scripts I can publish them, they are very simple and work for MacOS.

These A/B tests led me to a believe that DACs might indeed sound the same if they are in the same generation/class, but DAC tech advanced so much lately that I can't make this conclusion universally. What about current higher class mid-fi DACs though - would they be such a significant improvement over Motu M2 as it was over PreSonus AudioBox?
The current most hyped mid-fi DAC with the best measurements is Topping D90 and paired with Topping A90 amp I would get a fully balanced stack that would be very convenient to use with both headphones and studio monitors. Will it have any difference in the sound quality though? I would hate to "upgrade" to only realize that everything sounds the same.

What do you folks think? Has anyone made the jump from low-tier DAC comparable to Motu M2 to a mid-tier one like D90 and ideally done an A/B test between them - do they improve the sound in a discernible and appreciable way?

I would also appreciate any opinions about other ways to improve my setup. Upgrade bug-squashing comments would be appreciated too!

Thank you!

 

[Cahudson42]

With all those headphones and your 'older' monitors, sounds like you might enjoy a miniDSP so you could play with DSP optimisation profiles on them all

 

[f1shb0n3]

With all those headphones and your 'older' monitors, sounds like you might enjoy a miniDSP so you could play with DSP optimisation profiles on them all

I use SoundSource app on MacOS which allows to me to use AUNBandEQ VST plugin (parametric equalizer) on the system output. I do apply significant equalization to Hifiman HE-400i to make them sound reasonably good. The default sound of these headphones is unbearable with overly emphasized sibilant highs and completely missing low end. I was surprised how responsive these headphones are to EQ and how detailed and powerful low end it could squeeze out of them.

What would be the benefit of using miniDSP optimization profiles instead of digital parametric EQ?

 

[3125b]

The M2 isn't a "low-tier DAC", in Julian Krauses (Youtube) test it measured 101dB SINAD (if I remember right), flat frequency response etc.
Just like the Apple adapter, it's audibly transparent, not more not less. Unlike your Presonus, wich might indeed sound different aka not correct (though I wouldn't know for sure since I'm not aware of any measurements).
Of course you could buy a DAC with better measured performance, but don't expect audible differences. Pride of ownership and maybe convenience or features, design etc. would be the only real advantages with your current headphone collection.
With some very exotic hps like AKG K1000 or maybe highly sensitive IEMs you might profit from a more powerful amp or the lower noise level of the Topping stack.

So in my opinion:
If you have absolutely nothing else to spend money on, and possibly want to go for fancy headphones in the future, the Topping D90/A90 stack is a good choice and gets you great performance.
If you could use the 1000$ or so in any other way, thats probably the more sensible thing to do right now.

 

[3125b]

In Amirs newest review you have your definitive answer. The Motu M2/M4 is a pretty darn good DAC.
In the review I mentioned before, where it scored 101dB SINAD, the test setup might be the limiting factor.

 

[f1shb0n3]

In Amirs newest review you have your definitive answer. The Motu M2/M4 is a pretty darn good DAC.
In the review I mentioned before, where it scored 101dB SINAD, the test setup might be the limiting factor.

Impressive numbers in latest review indeed, really no good reason to upgrade it as a DAC. Maybe will upgrade to M4 so I have balanced line out in addition to preamp out so I won't have to do the volume all the way up/down inconvenience that I have with M2.

So now I'm turning my attention to speakers and amps After reading about the Purifi endgame amp I'm tempted to get it together with some reasonably priced Elac speakers like the newly announced UB52 Uni-Fi 2.0. This I expect would be a major jump in sound quality compared to my old Rokit 8.

Upgrades don't have always cost a lot of money though - just few minutes ago I did the cheapest most effective speaker soundstage and imaging improvement for my speakers by just putting a few sound absorber panels between them behind my computer monitor. Could not believe what a difference this made - without them the left and right channel got reflected and mixed up behind the screen while now I have a clean separation of channels. Listening to Yosi Horikawa Bubbles I can now identify the precise location and track the movement of each object while without the absorber panels the sound is a fuzzy mess.

I guess it will make sense to do some basic room treatment as I was planning before buying better speakers. Curious to see a review of Elac UB52 first and look around for more options too.

 

[3125b]

Purifi endgame amp

What exactly do you mean?

This I expect would be a major jump in sound quality compared to my old Rokit 8.

I don`t know. I personally don`t like the KRK RoKit, but of course I know nothing about the new ELAC.

I guess it will make sense to do some basic room treatment as I was planning before buying better speakers.

Certainly does. I'm on that myself at the moment. It's not easy ... or cheap. Basotect G+ absorbers cost something like 70€/m² (10cm thickness) and still don`t really work that well for low frequencies.
Having thick carpet and a bed or sofa plus the usual things like wardrobes already does a lot of good.
Oh well, that`s my take so far anyway. Of course room correction can be very helpful, but it`s not magic.

 

[f1shb0n3]

Purify 1ET400A amplifier module - a 425W balanced class D amp with great measurements:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/
Cheapest implementation by Audiophonics of a balanced stereo amplifier available for under $1400 delivered to US.
Looks like it could be my endgame amp for a desktop speaker setup that will sufficiently power any speaker I would ever fit on my desk and with these awesome measurements I would never need to consider an upgrade. I also like that it's an efficient class D amp not a class A room heater, my room is too hot already. It's amazing how audio technology is progressing in the past couple of years..

I like the KRK Rokit 8 overall but have a feeling it's lacking at the mid-range and overall clarity. I haven't really heard many other speakers to have a reference of what's even possible though.

My office is in a small bedroom with a bed and a carpet, but still has a lot of echo. I was able to identify one wall which is the major contributor to echo and I'll be putting this 48" x 72" panel with a picture that might also look good in the room: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CH1VPJ5. Definitely not a proper thick absorption panel, but a good compromise for price and looks.

 

[3125b]

You have to be somewhat careful to not only damp high frequencies, that will make it sound even worse at some point.
Usually, the most efficient thing is to put the dampening material there, where the first refelection appears - the wall opposite from the speakers (and maybe behind them). But you`ll have to figure out what works best for you.

I like the KRK Rokit 8 overall but have a feeling it's lacking at the mid-range and overall clarity.

Yeah, that is also my impression compared to ... pretty much every other speaker.

Seems like a good amp, if the implementation by audiophonics is any good (this one: AUDIOPHONICS LPA-S400ET?), but I don't think there is much to go wrong there. The performace of the modules is impressive without a doubt, and there is enough power for almost all common speakers I`m sure. Room correction should be no issue if you use a PC as a source, only requires a minor investment for a measurement microphone, you already have an interface anyway, and there is free software available.

 

[f1shb0n3]

I evaluated my room acoustics by playing a clapping sound through my speakers and hearing a long and annoying echo. Don’t know if it’s a valid approach, but prefer less or no echo if possible.

Yes, I'm considering Audiophonics LPA-S400ET which is their more compact version. There's always a risk with these smaller manufacturers - if you check out the posts about VTV Amplifier which sells them cheapest made in US, people reported a ton of issues. March Audio will be releasing soon their P452 stereo amp with Purify 1ET400A, it might be worth spending a bit extra to get a quality unit.

Thanks for the suggestion about a measurement microphone! I'll definitely get one and learn how to use it, should be a worthwhile investment.

 

[f1shb0n3]

Got a measurement microphone, measured, EQ'd and it made a significant improvement in audio quality even with the poor speakers I got!
Described my experience in a post My first successful speaker and room correction using REW and MacOS system-wide EQ which includes a before/after EQ frequency response curve.

Now that I know I prefer a more flat speakers an order of Hypex NC502MP amp and ELAC Debut Reference speakers is on the way - a cost-effective and data-driven upgrade with a high probability of measurable and subjective improvement in sound quality