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Upgrade / Comparisons? Ascend Sierra RAAL Towers / Revel F226Be / F228Be

8 inch woofers are not to large for small room with Harmon curve designed speaker coupled with ARC. Integration with sub is seemless.

Sure, but what is the point in filling the room with more bass and exciting room modes even further, just to then correct for it? Why spend the extra money?

One's listening distance also needs to be considered. F208s at my listening distance of ~7.5' would place my ears under the tweeters in the directivity dead zone. F206s are optimally sized for my room dimensions and listening distance.
 
Sure, but what is the point in filling the room with more bass and exciting room modes even further, just to then correct for it? Why spend the extra money?

One's listening distance also needs to be considered. F208s at my listening distance of ~7.5' would place my ears under the tweeters in the directivity dead zone. F206s are optimally sized for my room dimensions and listening distance.
Room nodes with 8 inch floorstander? Revel doesn't have a dead zone. You are over thinking.
 
Looking forward to read your impressions. I personally own a full set of Ascend Acoustics Sierra speakers, including Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s and Sierra Lunas. Also own Revel M106s, M105s and C205. Also owned Revel M126Be for a short period to compare with the Sierra Towers. To my ears, the Sierra Towers wins compared to the M126Be. The Sierra Towers high end is definitely more detailed. I also run my Sierra Towers crossed over at 80Hz as a pair of Rythmik Audio G22s subwoofers take care of the low ends. But definitely I would like to read your impressions because if I do upgrade my Sierra Towers w/RAAL it would be with Revel PerformaBe speakers. But for me, I don’t think it would be an upgrade and more like a lateral move.
 
The Sierra Towers high end is definitely more detailed.

This is my biggest concern. Those ribbons are just so good. The midrange on the Sierras is excellent as well. It's that mid to upper bass region where I feel things sound a bit on the thin side. If these darn Revels would ship already I could put this to bed pretty soon!
 
I'm going to run through a variety of music with both sets of speakers in full range and then listen to the same tracks again w/ the subs integrated at 80Hz. I expect a bigger advantage for the Revels in full range, but since I always use subs, it'll be interesting to see how things change. If nothing else, it should be fun.

I'm probably most excited for the C426Be center. That will clearly crush my current unit as the Horizon centers have been on back order.
 
If you want to experience a full comparison put the Denon in Pure Direct Stereo mode and run them both without subwoofers. That will open your eyes.
That's an obvious difference though. Comparing speakers with a large bass disparity will obviously sound different; with the lower extension speaker generally preferred. It's when both are properly crossed over to an identical subwoofer system that a more fair comparison can be made.
 
My F328Be speakers blow the Sierra Towers away. Its not even a contest. You will be totally happy with the F226Be. The Sierra Tower is nice but once you setup the F226 next to them you will hear the undeniable difference. If you want to experience a full comparison put the Denon in Pure Direct Stereo mode and run them both without subwoofers. That will open your eyes. :D

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Comparing the Sierra Tower with the F228Be is not a fair comparison. I compared the Sierra Tower w/RAAL with the M126Be, both crossed over at 80Hz and to "My Ears", in my room, the Sierra Towers sounded better not by a mile, but better. Mostly the high ends and female vocals is where the Sierra Towers shine. In fact, thanks to that comparison is why I decided to upgrade the speakers in my bedroom to Performa3 speakers.
 
A big old pallet of Revels shipped out from Harman yesterday. Fingers crossed that they arrive in time for a little weekend shootout.

I have my predictions but I'm trying really hard to wipe my mind clean and go into this as open as reasonably possible. No matter the outcome I'll be left with some awesome speakers, so there's that.
 
The speakers just hit the local terminal and should arrive tomorrow.

I'm putting together a little playlist for the "shootout" and I'm open to suggestions.
 
Alright, the speakers are here and I've conducted my "shootout".

First, I'll provide some general observations regarding the Revel PerformaBe speakers.

My wife is sick to death of my speaker shenanigans, so to calm the waters, I allowed her to choose the color scheme for the Revels. She selected black for the F426Be center (yes!), but white for the F226Be towers (UGH). I'd have never chosen white in a thousand years, as I think it's generally just far too loud of a color in large amounts (no pun intended), but I'm also happy to give credit where it's due. The white floorstanders are gorgeous and blend with the decor of the room perfectly. I love the contrast with the black center as well. Good call by her!

After getting the speakers positioned, just for kicks I performed a brief knuckle tap test on the cabinets of the Sierras and Revels. I thought that the Sierras were really inert (they are), but the Revels just sound dead when you hit them on the sides. Impressive. The Revel towers are a few pounds heavier than the Sierras, but were pretty easy to haul downstairs and maneuver. On the other hand, that center is a beast - noticeably bulkier and heavier than the towers. I was very happy once I got it settled onto the entertainment center.

Now onto the important stuff...

***WARNING***: What follows is a largely un-scientific, sighted comparison of two sets of speakers. There was only one participant (me) with his own biases and preconceptions to deal with and work around (whether successfully or otherwise). Should you find such activities mostly (if not utterly) worthless, you are more than welcome to exit this topic and engage in more productive uses of your time. I completely understand and take no offense.

Preparation / biases: My goal in embarking on this endeavor was to finally settle on my end-game speakers - well, at least end-game for the next decade or two. Once the kids have gone off on their own and are financially independent, who knows? I came very close with the Ascends. While they are wonderful speakers, I feel like they don't quite make it all the way to hitting the depth and heft I'm looking for. I'd love to fill in that small gap, and to do so without making sizable - if any - compromises.

To help mentally prepare myself for as unbiased a sighted comparison as I could muster, I told myself that no matter which set of speakers wins, so do I.

If the Sierras win: They're already here and settled in, I've got them EQ'd, and if they can best speakers that retail for twice the price, well, I'm probably not going to do any better. I'll continue to tweak and further address shortcomings of my room to try to dial in whatever additional performance is possible. I can then pack up the Revels and reclaim THOUSANDS of dollars.

If the Revels win: Alright, am I done? Yes, for goodness' sake, yes. Done. I've spent more money than I'd have preferred to, sure, but I'm done (or am I? Hmm...wait for the end).

Preconceptions: The Sierras will have better high end. The Revels will sound slightly "bigger". Will either be true? If so, by how much? Again, I did my utmost to purge such thoughts from my mind and just listen. These aren't speakers in the room, just noises. Shut your eyes and listen, dammit. Good? Good. Let's go.

First off, I configured the speakers in an ABAB fashion, with 8 feet between each set and 8 feet between them and the MLP. For fun, I listened to a few songs with both speakers in full range (Pure Direct), no subs, no EQ, no nothing.

The first thing I noticed is that, yikes, the Revels are getting smoked. Why? Well, one reason was that they weren't toe'd-in much at all. The Ascends don't seem to much care where they're pointed, so I've been using them with a only a very slight toe-in, and I started off the same with the Revels. No good in my room. I pointed each Revel tower at the MLP and they immediately sounded much better. I also found that the Revels were down about 2dB vs the Sierras, so I would need to level-match for all testing going forward. Ok, let's start again. The next surprise: Despite being down on woofer displacement, the Sierra's low end was...better? Well, slightly punchier and more detailed, even louder - yes. One reason may be that they are rear-ported, and the Revels are front-ported. Being about a foot off the back wall, the Sierras were likely getting some bass boost. Frankly, I wasn't as discerning with this testing as I always use subs for both movies and 2 channel music, but seat of the pants impression was the that Sierras were sounding better overall.

Alright, enough of that. Let's get down to the real 2 channel music test. For these comparisons, room correction and EQ were off. Subs were engaged and crossovers set to 80Hz. I chose a variety of songs that I'm familiar with. If you're not, I'd suggest giving them a listen so you have a frame of reference to work from.

Eugene Ruffolo - Poor Lonesome Me

Revels: Acoustic guitar sounds good but slightly muffled. Strong, smooth vocals with good dynamics.

Sierras: Whoa, there's the guitar sound I'm familiar with - crisp, detailed. It sounds like it's in the room with you. Similar vocals, but slightly more forward.

Winner: Sierras by a moderate amount.

Blind Melon - No Rain

Sierras: Sharp, crisp, but not super dimensional. Vocals are clear and prominent.

Revels: Great imaging and good texture. Vocals are more recessed and behind the instruments.

Winner: Revels by a very slight amount.

Marion Rampal - Youkali

Sierras: Vocals eerily natural, she sounds like she's right in front of you. Very centered and detailed. Bassoon is textured and breathy.

Revels: Vocals smooth and clear but slightly recessed and boxy in comparison. Bassoon more forward.

Winner: Sierras by a moderate amount.

Norah Jones - I've Got To See You Again

Revels: Good depth. Vocals are breathy and blended with instruments. Good dimension.

Sierras: Smoother, not quite as deep. Vocals are more forward.

Winner: Tie

Laura Marling - Soothing

Sierras: Punchy but tight drum and bass. Vocals are wow. It sounds like she's right in front of your face.

Revels: Bass more forward. Drum is boomier. Vocals are boxier.

Winner: Sierras by a solid amount.

Radiohead - Daily Mail

Sierras: Crisp vocals. Good piano imaging. Guitar gets a little muddy when loud. Sounds more intimate, even when it opens up towards the end.

Revels: Piano sounds more natural and present in the room. Vocals are warmer / smoother. When the song gets loud, it sounds bigger and more coherent.

Winner: Revels by a solid amount.

Pete Belasco - Deeper

Revels: Smooth, decent imaging. Vocals blend with instruments.

Sierras: Crisper and punchier. Imaging is similar. Vocals are more prominent.

Winner: Sierras by a slight amount.

Tool - Pneuma

Sierras: Punchy, but a little muddy. Vocals sharp. The track sounded a little harsh at times.

Revels: Wow! Smooth, better blended. Big sound when the song really gets going.

Winner: Revels by a very solid amount.

Eagles - Hotel California - Live from Hell Freezes Over

Revels: Smooth acoustic guitars. Nice immersive sound of applause. Bongos slightly recessed. Imaging awesome. Vocals balanced but a little recessed at times.

Sierras: Acoustic guitars sharper / more detailed. Applause a little flatter, not as "live" sounding. Bongos slightly punchier. Imaging a bit fuzzier. Vocals forward.

Winner: Revels by a slight amount.

Art Pepper - Jazz Me Blues

I was particularly looking forward to this one as I'm a (permanently aspiring) jazz drummer and Philly Joe Jones is one of my favorites. It's also a very high-quality recording.

Revels: Tom hits sound great, very life-like. Breathy saxophone. Snare drum is textured if slightly recessed. Ride cymbal has good dynamics.

Sierras: Saxophone is sharper. Drums sound a tinge thinner / boxier. Ride cymbal sounds excellent. Hi-hats more forward.

Winner: Revels by a slight amount.

Mozart - Dies Irae

Sierras: Highs prominent. Some instruments seem recessed in comparison.

Revels: Fuller / bigger sound. Better balanced. More impactful.

Winner: Revels by a solid amount.

Conclusion: Whether my preconceptions got the best of me or whether they were simply proven true (I leave that for you to consider), I ended up fairly close to where I expected to. High end detail and texture, particularly with vocals, are really hard to beat when you hear the RAAL tweeters. The Revels' beryllium-led waveguides put up a respectable fight, and even pulled ahead in certain cases, but overall, there's just something sweet, natural, and magical about the RAALs. The Revels did provide that extra oomph and dimension I was after. It's just a shame to have to unload the Sierra's high-end to get there.

What to do? Well, I want my cake and I want to eat it, too, so, the plan is to ultimately sell off the Sierra towers and upgrade the bookshelves in my living room to 2EXs. That way I can have my fun in the basement "theater", and sink into the couch in the living room to enjoy some acoustic goodness. YOLO and such...right?

More obvservations / thoughts to come as I EQ and spend more time auditioning.
 
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Almost same conclusion I came with when compared the Sierra Towers w/RAAL and Revel M126Be. With jazz and female vocals like Norah Jones and Lala Hathaway, the Sierra Towers shine due the RAAL and the amazing mid driver. Anyways, thanks for sharing your honest impressions :)
 
I would certainly expect the F328Be to be more "impactful" in full range versus the F226Be. It's a much larger speaker, more sensitive, and capable of more bass output. It'll still push more air around with subs (especially if near a rear wall), but I'd expect the differences to shrink if not mostly disappear beyond that based on measurements.

Again, I spent little time / effort on the Sierras and 226s in full range. With sub integration, the Revels are certainly fuller and more engaging with certain material than the Ascends. This was the case in a big way with the Tool track (as I'd expect it to be with any similar material). Big, complicated classical pieces tend to favor Revel as well - I casually listened to other classical tracks after the initial comparison. During more intimate tracks, especially when vocals and instruments seem to be recorded near-field, the Sierras tend to be more engaging. They fair very well with super-clean, electronic type music as well. For a busy collection of live instruments, Revel starts walking away. It really depends on what you're listening to.

I did run room correction and adjust after completing the shootout. Things definitely improved for the better on the Revels. They're still not going to match the high frequency openness and extra layer of detail of the Sierras, but they sounded incredible overall.

I also did a bit of HT listening to get the center channel involved. At first it was...strange. I've never heard film dialogue sound so clean and clear. It was honestly a little disconcerting. I'm looking forward to cranking it up and truly putting it through its paces.
 
I also did a bit of HT listening to get the center channel involved. At first it was...strange. I've never heard film dialogue sound so clean and clear. It was honestly a little disconcerting. I'm looking forward to cranking it up and truly putting it through its paces.
I'm near sold on aiming for the exact same endgame setup and that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Congrats. I can definitely see a pair of F226Be speakers and matching C426Be in my future.

Just checked back to see that you're upgrading from an Emotiva C2+. I've currently got the T1 towers and C1 center so that should do me while I save the funds. Would be curious to see a comparison between the C426Be and the Sierra center with RAAL.
 
I just spent a few hours auditioning some movies with the new front stage.

I think the C426Be scared the hell out of Audyssey as it knocked down the center's trim to 5.5dB below the R and L speakers. I've never seen that kind of disparity before. I nudged it up and then played some busy scenes very loudly.

This is the cleanest center I've ever heard. Dialog is incredibly clear, dynamic, and detailed. It's also rock solid off-axis. There's virtually no discernable difference in clarity, response, or volume as I moved around to various seats. It's also incredible at moderate to lower volumes. This is where most centers tend to struggle. It retains high levels of intelligibility and dynamics even at a barley background noise volume level. The front three speakers create a massive and perfectly cohesive soundstage when called for just as easily as they do an intimate, confined space, and sometimes eerily so. It's been very difficult to peel myself off the couch. I never got the opportunity to listen to the Horizon center as it's been on back order. I'm sure I'd have been thrilled with it, but it's difficult to imagine a single speaker besting what I'm hearing out of the C426Be.
 
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I just spent a few hours auditioning some movies with the new front stage.

I think the C426Be scared the hell out of Audyssey as it knocked down the center's trim to 5.5dB below the R and L speakers. I've never seen that kind of disparity before. I nudged it up and then played some busy scenes very loudly.

This is the cleanest center I've ever heard. Dialog is incredibly clear, dynamic, and detailed. It's also rock solid off-axis. There's virtually no discernable difference in clarity, response, or volume as I moved around to various seats. It's also incredible at moderate to lower volumes. This is where most centers tend to struggle. It retains high levels of intelligibility and dynamics even at a barley background noise volume level. The front three speakers create a massive and perfectly cohesive soundstage when called for just as easily as they do an intimate, confined space, and sometimes eerily so. It's been very difficult to peel myself off the couch. I never got the opportunity to listen to the Horizon center as it's been on back order. I'm sure I'd have been thrilled with it, but it's difficult to imagine a single speaker besting what I'm hearing out of the C426Be.
A solid center channel is a must for home theatre in my experience. The Horizon with RAAL tweeter is also a large dynamic center. Glad that you're happy with your purchase!
 
A solid center channel is a must for home theatre in my experience. The Horizon with RAAL tweeter is also a large dynamic center. Glad that you're happy with your purchase!

I'm sure the Horizon is awesome as well, as it's essentially the same speaker as the Sierra tower, just smooshed and stretched into a cube.

I did order a pair of Sierra-2EX bookshelves for the living room, as well as a Duo center (the Horizon would not even come close to physically fitting up there) so I'll still be able to get my RAAL fix in. The Duo is the V2 version with the new crossover and other internal upgrades to address the resonance issue and other measurement messes found with the original.

In the meantime I've been in 2 channel mode with the Revels for much of the morning. They are just superbly balanced and an absolute pleasure to listen to for hours on end (this is a problem), especially after EQ. If I could magically merge these with the Sierra towers, I think the result would be a 100% perfect speaker for me. Maybe one day Dave will finally come up with the Sierra Tower XL.
 
If I could magically merge these with the Sierra towers, I think the result would be a 100% perfect speaker for me. Maybe one day Dave will finally come up with the Sierra Tower XL.

I really enjoyed your shootout and follow-up conversation. Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison and share your impressions!

I'm interested in the technical aspects of this last comment. What would a best-of-both-worlds speaker look like? Is it RAAL + Revel's midrange + multiple 8" woofers? I've read that Revel is known for their "driver integration", but I'm not entirely sure what this means (time alignment, crossover design, controlled directivity??). Is that an area where the Sierra tower could/should be improved?

I'm currently using a pair of Philharmonic BMR Monitors, which I'm extremely happy with, but I think my end game is a pair of towers. Like you, I run with a pair of subs so I haven't worried about low end extension or multiple woofers. But perhaps both are needed if you want the "fuller", "more impactful" sound you're describing?

Getting at the same question from a different direction... I wonder if Philharmonic's BMR Tower is basically the Sierra Tower XL you're describing.
 
I really enjoyed your shootout and follow-up conversation. Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison and share your impressions!

I'm interested in the technical aspects of this last comment. What would a best-of-both-worlds speaker look like? Is it RAAL + Revel's midrange + multiple 8" woofers? I've read that Revel is known for their "driver integration", but I'm not entirely sure what this means (time alignment, crossover design, controlled directivity??). Is that an area where the Sierra tower could/should be improved?

I'm currently using a pair of Philharmonic BMR Monitors, which I'm extremely happy with, but I think my end game is a pair of towers. Like you, I run with a pair of subs so I haven't worried about low end extension or multiple woofers. But perhaps both are needed if you want the "fuller", "more impactful" sound you're describing?

Getting at the same question from a different direction... I wonder if Philharmonic's BMR Tower is basically the Sierra Tower XL you're describing.

As far as a best-of-both-worlds speaker, for me it would the Revel's mid-upper bass performance and larger soundstage combined with the sparkling, open naturalness of the Sierra's high end. For higher quality, well-mixed rock music like, say, Tool or Nine Inch Nails, the Revel's shine. The music sounds bigger and better balanced with more mid-bass thump and impact. The Sierras still sound largely great, but they lose a little bit of coherency and can tend towards more thin and shrill with certain tracks. The same is mostly true of big orchestral pieces. I definitely don't think a bunch of big drivers are needed. For me, the dual 6-1/2s on the F226Bes seem about perfect for my room. Some of that may be psychoacoustics combined with a bit of confirmation bias, but I don't feel that I'd gain much if anything in my room from bigger drivers than these (I had dual 8" Emotiva T2+ towers before).

I think the Sierras and Revels meet somewhere in the midrange, where both are absolutely excellent. From there they tend to best each other in opposing directions, at least with subs integrated. Again, I spent little time with them in full range. The Be tweeters are exemplary, and are probably the best I've heard outside of the RAALs, but they do take a back seat to the latter. I did listen to a few minutes of ~$30,000 B&W diamond speakers that absolutely knocked my socks off, but that was well over a decade ago, so who knows how I'd react now.

I gave a lot of consideration to the BMR towers. I opted against them for a few reasons:

They're not massive, but are a little bigger than I'd prefer for the space.

Their frequency extension and bass output are very impressive. I felt that this performance is a good chunk of what you're paying for and would be mostly wasted given the use of an 80Hz crossover.

There isn't really a matching center available. I suppose that a BMR Monitor might have worked, but it wouldn't have been an ideal solution in my setup.

I'm super impatient and there is a wait list for them.

Of course, having never heard them, you could be right and I may have missed out on my "perfect" speaker! I'd still love to hear them some day.
 
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Conclusion: Whether my preconceptions got the best of me or whether they were simply proven true (I leave that for you to consider), I ended up fairly close to where I expected to. High end detail and texture, particularly with vocals, are really hard to beat when you hear the RAAL tweeters. The Revels' beryllium-led waveguides put up a respectable fight, and even pulled ahead in certain cases, but overall, there's just something sweet, natural, and magical about the RAALs. The Revels did provide that extra oomph and dimension I was after. It's just a shame to have to unload the Sierra's high-end to get there.

What to do? Well, I want my cake and I want to eat it, too, so, the plan is to ultimately sell off the Sierra towers and upgrade the bookshelves in my living room to 2EXs. That way I can have my fun in the basement "theater", and sink into the couch in the living room to enjoy some acoustic goodness. YOLO and such...right?

More obvservations / thoughts to come as I EQ and spend more time auditioning.

Good shootout. It does seem like your expectation bias played a bit of a role but not too bad, it was still better than what most people do. It would be really interesting to repeat your songs blind with someone switching to see if your impressions change. I've also personally found that comparing a single speaker of each with a mono recording is much easier to spot differences, this probably helps more than comparing blind but I think that depends on how much we are personally affected by sighted bias. The only reason I say that is because comparing the measurements of the F226 and Horizon (we don't have the towers with RAAL yet but they should be similar), the F226 seem to have "brighter" or more detailed highs both on-axis and in the early reflections, based on that I would think the Sierras would be a bit more laid back. Also, remember the Sierra 2 EX actually use the different 64-10 RAAL and will sound different than the one used in the towers but it's actually wider dispersion and they do measure a bit on the bright side which might be what you prefer.

I do agree with normalizing the bass in some way between speakers with different bass output but I prefer comparing without subs and using high pass filters and/or EQ to make both similar because that also seems to make it easier to spot differences in the range you should be most concerned with (80Hz +). I don't like using subs because different speakers will blend differently with them so whichever happens to integrate better is going to sound better in the bass, easier to just not include them IMO. I can't imagine the Sierras not playing as loud as most people care to listen when crossed at 80-100Hz and properly integrated with subs so I wouldn't personally let the bass sway my decision.

The good news here is that you'll likely have a good system with any of the speakers you've auditioned or plan to buy.
 
Good shootout. It does seem like your expectation bias played a bit of a role but not too bad, it was still better than what most people do. It would be really interesting to repeat your songs blind with someone switching to see if your impressions change. I've also personally found that comparing a single speaker of each with a mono recording is much easier to spot differences, this probably helps more than comparing blind but I think that depends on how much we are personally affected by sighted bias. The only reason I say that is because comparing the measurements of the F226 and Horizon (we don't have the towers with RAAL yet but they should be similar), the F226 seem to have "brighter" or more detailed highs both on-axis and in the early reflections, based on that I would think the Sierras would be a bit more laid back. Also, remember the Sierra 2 EX actually use the different 64-10 RAAL and will sound different than the one used in the towers but it's actually wider dispersion and they do measure a bit on the bright side which might be what you prefer.

It's difficult to explain, but I wouldn't say that the Revels were either brighter or warmer in the traditional usage of the terms. I think the ribbon tweeters throw a bit of a wrench into the typical adjectives that often get tossed around during speaker comparisons. If both used domes it would likely be easier to label one or the other as brighter or warmer. I do consider the RAALs to be laid back. I wouldn't describe the Revels that way, exactly. This probably sounds counterintuitive to the Sierras having more detailed highs, but it's not simply because the highs had more energy behind them or that the mids / lows were always recessed exactly. It's almost as if they are softer and smoother but at the same time more detailed and crisper. Perhaps that's the "magical" quality that they are often tagged with possessing. Now we're getting super scientific!

I do agree with normalizing the bass in some way between speakers with different bass output but I prefer comparing without subs and using high pass filters and/or EQ to make both similar because that also seems to make it easier to spot differences in the range you should be most concerned with (80Hz +). I don't like using subs because different speakers will blend differently with them so whichever happens to integrate better is going to sound better in the bass, easier to just not include them IMO. I can't imagine the Sierras not playing as loud as most people care to listen when crossed at 80-100Hz and properly integrated with subs so I wouldn't personally let the bass sway my decision.

I agree. Had this been a more traditional "which speaker is better" type of shootout that would have been the way to go. Time contraints compelled me to dedicate my efforts and energy into determining which speaker was better in my room with my setup. Ideally I'd have also EQ'd both sets of towers, but I can only load one profile into my receiver, and it takes nearly a minute swap in a different one. That's simply too great a length of time to pass in between listens. Additionally, I played several tracks multiple times between each set of speakers to confirm what I was (or wasn't hearing) from one or the other, making EQ'ing even more impractical.
 
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