Understanding subwoofers

[LSPhil]

That’s fair enough — “musicality” is one of those very personal, subjective terms. It’s kind of like trying to describe the beauty of, say, Trump’s wife: everyone will have a different take, and there’s no absolute measure. Some people hear it right away and appreciate it, others just shrug and move on.

 

[VMAT4]

That’s simply not correct. Every reputable manufacturer uses different cone materials, and they absolutely don’t all sound the same. Audax, for example, uses Aerogel; SB Acoustics often use aluminum or paper; and so on. The differences are audible. I’ve personally experimented with various materials myself, so I know what I’m talking about.

Have you ever listened to a subwoofer alone without the full range or bookshelf speakers? I can't believe there are audible differences between materials here.

 

[mk05]

Well, you can listen to LSPhil's opinion on this if it suits you. However, this being a science-oriented site, just know that nothing he is saying is supported by any data whatsoever.

I understand objective fact is fact. I am merely pondering if there is a possibility that we have yet to measure something else. Until then, I am with you that texture sounds dubious, although a lot of people observe it - perhaps from conflation.

As for A & B testing, has Harmon ever conducted a test on material to see if there was a noted observation? If we were to make 2 subwoofers (or speakers) that are exactly the same, ie one being made of aluminum cone vs paper, thin out the material (for example) so that they measure exactly the same in all the measurements that we know of in today's science, would these speakers truly sound exactly the same? I mean, I would assume so? Since if there was a statistically significant amount of people who said they noticed a difference, then that would mean there is something else there.

 

[Sokel]

Have you ever listened to a subwoofer alone without the full range or bookshelf speakers? I can't believe there are audible differences between materials here.

Listening like that is a great tell, specially with works with acoustic bass, elaborate, precise glissando, along with the orchestra, etc.
Sometimes you can hear some of them struggling, literally.

Specially the ones forced to do things they shouldn't, by physics.

 

[LSPhil]

Have you ever listened to a subwoofer alone without the full range or bookshelf speakers? I can't believe there are audible differences between materials here.

I’ve actually spent a long time looking into this. Being technically inclined, I was able to integrate and compare three different types of midrange drivers into existing 3-way speakers. Over the years, I tried quite a few — including the Isophon PSM120, KEF 110A, Seas W12, Seas L12, SB Acoustics 12MNR, SB Acoustics 12CAC, Dayton Audio RS52AN, Seas MU10LR, Audax HM130Z10, Scanspeak 15M8424, Scanspeak 18M4631T00, and the Isophon MTS120OEM.
Of all these, the ScanSpeak 18M4631T00 stood out the most. The weakest was by far the KEF 110A.

 

[LSPhil]

I understand objective fact is fact. I am merely pondering if there is a possibility that we have yet to measure something else. Until then, I am with you that texture sounds dubious, although a lot of people observe it - perhaps from conflation.

As for A & B testing, has Harmon ever conducted a test on material to see if there was a noted observation? If we were to make 2 subwoofers (or speakers) that are exactly the same, ie one being made of aluminum cone vs paper, thin out the material (for example) so that they measure exactly the same in all the measurements that we know of in today's science, would these speakers truly sound exactly the same? I mean, I would assume so? Since if there was a statistically significant amount of people who said they noticed a difference, then that would mean there is something else there.

I’ve tried the Audax TW025A20MG tweeter
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/do...-8-ohm-1-inch-voice-coil-3-94-inch-front.html
and also replaced the diaphragm with the magnesium and titanium version as a spare part:
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/diaphragm-audax-tw025a20mg-8-ohm.html
There were very significant differences. Sorry, but I can’t report otherwise.

 

[Chagall]

I wouldn’t overthink “musicality” in subwoofers. What matters is SPL, low distortion, and proper placement. Small subs can’t defy physics - they struggle with deep bass at higher volumes. Want loud and deep? Go bigger and ported. Apartment? Stick with sealed.

Set all speakers to small, cross bass to the sub, set distance, and connect via LFE. Use a UMIK mic to measure in-room response.

The SVS 3000 Micro and KEF KC62 are overpriced and don’t dig deep - plus they roll off even more at volume. For example, the KEF MIE 15" hits 116 dB and costs €1300, while the KC62 only manages 105 dB and costs €1700. In the end, it depends on your room and whether you prioritize output or footprint.

 

[LSPhil]

Listening like that is a great tell, specially with works with acoustic bass, elaborate, precise glissando, along with the orchestra, etc.
Sometimes you can hear some of them struggling, literally.

Specially the ones forced to do things they shouldn't, by physics.

You really can’t judge it like that. The bass driver reproduces the fundamental frequencies, and the midrange usually handles the harmonics — for example, a 100 Hz fundamental and its third harmonic at 300 Hz. It’s the same with the attack speed of a drum or the beautiful tone of a violin.

 

[SIY]

The bass driver reproduces the fundamental frequencies, and the midrange usually handles the harmonics

Which is exactly why the material claim is sus.

 

[LSPhil]

I wouldn’t overthink “musicality” in subwoofers. What matters is SPL, low distortion, and proper placement. Small subs can’t defy physics - they struggle with deep bass at higher volumes. Want loud and deep? Go bigger and ported. Apartment? Stick with sealed.

Set all speakers to small, cross bass to the sub, set distance, and connect via LFE. Use a UMIK mic to measure in-room response.

The SVS 3000 Micro and KEF KC62 are overpriced and don’t dig deep - plus they roll off even more at volume. For example, the KEF MIE 15" hits 116 dB and costs €1300, while the KC62 only manages 105 dB and costs €1700. In the end, it depends on your room and whether you prioritize output or footprint.

Here’s a suggestion for a simple guide to optimal subwoofer placement in your room—no measuring equipment needed—based on Visaton’s (and general) recommendations:

---

1. Bass is omnidirectional – Subwoofers radiate sound in all directions, so precise pointing isn’t crucial. It’s more important that they’re not muffled by walls or furniture (forum.visaton.de).


2. Avoid corners and wall flush – Placing the sub directly in a corner or pushed against a wall often makes the bass too boomy. Instead, start a little away from the wall—about 30–45 cm (12–18″) is a good rule of thumb .


3. Use the “subwoofer crawl” – Place the sub at your listening spot, play a bass-heavy track, then crawl around the perimeter at knee/head height. Mark the spots where the bass sounds tight and smooth. Those are likely great locations for your sub .


4. Align it with your listener plane – Keeping the sub on the same front line as your speakers helps with seamless integration and phase coherence .

---

Visaton emphasizes that, just like most experts, practical trial-and-error often beats theory unless you use measuring gear (forum.visaton.de).


So without any equipment, follow these steps:

1. Place ~30–45 cm from wall, not in corner
2. Align with speaker plane
3. Use the “crawl” method to identify smooth bass spots
4. Fine-tune the position based on what sounds best

That’s a solid, easy-to-follow approach recommended by Visaton and room-acoustics authorities alike.

 

[LSPhil]

Which is exactly why the material claim is sus.

"If you keep the midrange driver the same and only change the woofer, you can still hear the differences."

This makes sense because while the midrange reproduces harmonics (which contribute significantly to timbre and detail), the woofer's performance in reproducing the fundamental frequencies (especially in the lower mids and bass) affects overall tonal balance, impact, and even how the midrange is perceived. A different woofer can alter dynamics, distortion levels, and frequency response, leading to audible changes even if the midrange remains unchanged.

 

[kyuu]

Apologies to the OP for participating in getting this thread rather derailed.

 

[Oddball]

What is the size of the room and distance from sub to MLP? What are your speakers and what is your intended crossover and SPL requirements? Do you have any idea of the FQ response in your intended position (either from experiment or modelling?)

I think you have much bigger fish to fry than what is musical. The question is will it work as intended and to what extent. These are all small subs so if expectations are large and room not small and flexible to placement, then there will be a mismatch.

 

[Chagall]

Here’s a suggestion for a simple guide to optimal subwoofer placement in your room—no measuring equipment needed—based on Visaton’s (and general) recommendations:

---

1. Bass is omnidirectional – Subwoofers radiate sound in all directions, so precise pointing isn’t crucial. It’s more important that they’re not muffled by walls or furniture (forum.visaton.de).


2. Avoid corners and wall flush – Placing the sub directly in a corner or pushed against a wall often makes the bass too boomy. Instead, start a little away from the wall—about 30–45 cm (12–18″) is a good rule of thumb .


3. Use the “subwoofer crawl” – Place the sub at your listening spot, play a bass-heavy track, then crawl around the perimeter at knee/head height. Mark the spots where the bass sounds tight and smooth. Those are likely great locations for your sub .


4. Align it with your listener plane – Keeping the sub on the same front line as your speakers helps with seamless integration and phase coherence .

---

Visaton emphasizes that, just like most experts, practical trial-and-error often beats theory unless you use measuring gear (forum.visaton.de).


So without any equipment, follow these steps:

1. Place ~30–45 cm from wall, not in corner
2. Align with speaker plane
3. Use the “crawl” method to identify smooth bass spots
4. Fine-tune the position based on what sounds best

That’s a solid, easy-to-follow approach recommended by Visaton and room-acoustics authorities alike.

Never understood the sub crawl method, it’s subjective and only works for a single seat. In most rooms, you don’t have many placement options anyway. It also doesn’t help with integration to mains. IMO if you want real results, use a mic and REW.

 

[DMill]

Man. Too much information. Or TMI if you’d like. A sub like the SVS 1000 is just as “musical” as any other. Is the 3000 series worth the extra money? Maybe if you like the smaller footprint. Buy one and play with room placement. You aren’t gonna get measured room results all that different regardless of the manufacturer of the sub. It’s really a solved problem and unless you want to nerd out on graphs a pretty easy reco to say a sub or two sounds really nice.

 

[mk05]

Never understood the sub crawl method, it’s subjective and only works for a single seat. In most rooms, you don’t have many placement options anyway. It also doesn’t help with integration to mains. IMO if you want real results, use a mic and REW.

Totally agree that I am already stuck in a suboptimal result, because I don't know how to do room measurements. I am doing the best with what I have, until I decide to buy a mic and learn how to do the measuring.

What is the size of the room and distance from sub to MLP? What are your speakers and what is your intended crossover and SPL requirements? Do you have any idea of the FQ response in your intended position (either from experiment or modelling?)

I think you have much bigger fish to fry than what is musical. The question is will it work as intended and to what extent. These are all small subs so if expectations are large and room not small and flexible to placement, then there will be a mismatch.

The room is 15ft x 20ft x a sloped height from 8ft to 15ft. The volume will not go very high in this room, and if it ends up not being enough, it will go to my office hehe. The thought was to move my pair of Energy Connoisseur C5s from my office to this sitting/play/versatile room. I planned on crossing them over at 80hz.

What would be the negatives of telling my AVR to set speakers to small, which would limit low freq to my mains, and having my subwoofer cross at 80hz? Wouldn't this be doubly as beneficial? Since my subwoofer is limited to 80hz or less, the mains are now not trying to reproduce low freq that it can't, and instead focusing on freq that it can?

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all the feedback and opinions.

 

[Chrispy]

There are such things as musical subwoofers —

Defined how? More an idiotic description IMO.

 

[kyuu]

What would be the negatives of telling my AVR to set speakers to small, which would limit low freq to my mains, and having my subwoofer cross at 80hz? Wouldn't this be doubly as beneficial? Since my subwoofer is limited to 80hz or less, the mains are now not trying to reproduce low freq that it can't, and instead focusing on freq that it can?

Only potential negative is if you have poor integration resulting in a big hole in the frequency response through the crossover region, or a significant bump. Without measurements, all you can really do is set it up and let your ears tell you if it sounds good or not. If you're not happy with it, you'll have to shoot in the dark (play with positioning, crossover frequencies, phase knob/switch) to see if you can improve it.

 

[SIY]

This makes sense because while the midrange reproduces harmonics (which contribute significantly to timbre and detail), the woofer's performance in reproducing the fundamental frequencies (especially in the lower mids and bass) affects overall tonal balance, impact, and even how the midrange is perceived.

That makes no sense whatsoever in the context of your material claim. But of course, if you have actual data to demonstrate this, that's a different matter.

 

[Chagall]

Only potential negative is if you have poor integration resulting in a big hole in the frequency response through the crossover region, or a significant bump. Without measurements, all you can really do is set it up and let your ears tell you if it sounds good or not. If you're not happy with it, you'll have to shoot in the dark (play with positioning, crossover frequencies, phase knob/switch) to see if you can improve it.

What would be the negatives of telling my AVR to set speakers to small, which would limit low freq to my mains, and having my subwoofer cross at 80hz? Wouldn't this be doubly as beneficial? Since my subwoofer is limited to 80hz or less, the mains are now not trying to reproduce low freq that it can't, and instead focusing on freq that it can?

Exactly what @kyuu said! Maybe the extra complexity is a negative.

Positives of high-passing your mains:
- mains have an easier job by offloading deep bass -> less distortion -> improved midrange clarity
- more headroom -> can go louder
- reduces power demands on your AVR (speakers often dip below 4 ohms between 50–100 Hz)
- allows mains to be placed closer to the wall with less risk of boominess

AVRs should really change the naming from Small and Big to Crossover (default and recommended) and Full band.