I am looking at adding a subwoofer to my secondary sitting room. The candidates are SVS SB1000pro, SVS 3000 micro, and RSL Speedwoofer 10s mk2. When I watch/read some reviews, almost everyone is saying that SB1000pro is not musical, and that it does not blend in as well as the others. I am confused by this. I might not understand the graphs very well, so I might be butchering this, but can't you just lower the output, select low-pass, and correct the phase if a subwoofer is "standing out?" I saw that the sb1000 pro has comparable distortion and delay (almost every data point seem to be very similar, except that it goes a bit deeper), so what other aspects are making reviews call the sb1000pro only a HT sub that is not suitable for music? They claim that the sb1000 pro can be "tweaked" to be more musical, but it cannot compare with the musicality of the micro or RSL. What am I missing?
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Understanding subwoofers
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DVDdoug
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Although I don't know anything about it... Probably not true...
The thing that would make a sub non-musical would be if it's badly designed like some of those nasty one-note car stereo subwoofers. Then it would only be good for explosions, etc. No decent sub will be made like that!
Ideally, you want smooth-deep bass that goes loud-enough for you.
"Musical" is just typical "audiophile nonsense". When my speakers play music they are musical. If I'm listening to the news or sports, they are not musical.
Keith_W
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Your intuition is correct. Many, but not all of the problems with subwoofers can be fixed with DSP / careful equalisation. What can not be fixed:
- group delay caused by presence of ports
- lack of LF extension if its not there in the first place
- maximum volume
- distortion
There are probably more.
What causes a sub to be "unmusical" is if no effort was made to integrate the sub in the first place. Crossing it over too high, turning the volume too high (a common mistake made by people without microphones), improper placement so it maximally excites room modes, etc. will ruin any subwoofer, not just SVS subwoofers.
- group delay caused by presence of ports
- lack of LF extension if its not there in the first place
- maximum volume
- distortion
There are probably more.
What causes a sub to be "unmusical" is if no effort was made to integrate the sub in the first place. Crossing it over too high, turning the volume too high (a common mistake made by people without microphones), improper placement so it maximally excites room modes, etc. will ruin any subwoofer, not just SVS subwoofers.
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Kudos for getting confused, truly. One should be confused when reviewers are throwing out meaningless and unsupportable terms like "musical".
How are you planning to handle the crossover between the speakers and the subwoofer? Just using the subwoofer's built-in low-pass? Proper integration typically requires a proper crossover (both low-passing the subwoofer and high-passing the mains) as well as some sort of EQ or room correction to help with the peaks (and dips, to a lessor extent) that are inevitable in any home setup due to room modes.
How are you planning to handle the crossover between the speakers and the subwoofer? Just using the subwoofer's built-in low-pass? Proper integration typically requires a proper crossover (both low-passing the subwoofer and high-passing the mains) as well as some sort of EQ or room correction to help with the peaks (and dips, to a lessor extent) that are inevitable in any home setup due to room modes.
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I have the original, non-DSP SB-1000 -- and I can testify, without hesitation, that it's "musical" AF! 
That said, I don't know if the current "Pro" version retains the built-in high-pass filter for the main L+R speakers, but IMO that -- or a similar capability elsewhere in the system -- is the key to successful sub integration.
That said, I don't know if the current "Pro" version retains the built-in high-pass filter for the main L+R speakers, but IMO that -- or a similar capability elsewhere in the system -- is the key to successful sub integration.
Talisman
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when I read someone saying that something is more "musical" I know for sure not to take it seriously
Sealed box subs are generally preferred for music because music don't go that low, sealed boxes don't have port phase shifts and higher cutoff frequency means they will not need that much extra power they normally do.
There are such things as musical subwoofers — especially when the driver uses one or even three correction rings, just like the Dayton Audio RSS series, as well as drivers from ScanSpeak, Wavecor, or Tymphany. In my experience, the cone material also plays a huge role. Personally, I swear by aluminum cones.
Check out the user reviews for the Dayton RSS series here:
https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=RSS315HF
Check out the user reviews for the Dayton RSS series here:
https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=RSS315HF
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Subjective reviews from customers do not comprise credible evidence of anything in audio -- other than those folks' opinions of something already purchased, which almost always involve financially/emotionally-based confirmation bias.
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Would this be akin to many people being fans of Beryllium tweeters? My question would be, if a note is played and it is of a certain hz, and that hz is faithfully reproduced - as far as we know/measure - why does it matter what material is making that note? I ask because these qualitative reviewers always talk about "weight," "tone," and "punchiness," but all the measurements between the 3 subs are really really similar. Arguably, the sb1000 pro should be the MOST musical of the bunch...yet they claim the complete opposite. Is it possible that there are other factors that we have yet to identify as measurable, that are perhaps giving people the belief that they are hearing a difference?
Forgive me again, as I am technologically disinclined...but I am trying really hard to learn and retain as much information as I can. I don't have a microphone, nor do I really understand how to go about doing measurements and making changes. As for the subwoofer...From what I have read, my old HT AVR will need to be set at small speakers, and because my speakers go down to about 80hz (flat response, drops from there), I would set the pass at around 95hz (I was recommended 10-15hz above dropoff point). As for placement, I was going to place the sub in the listening position, play some test tones at 30hz, 50hz, 70hz, and walk around the room with decibel meter app on my phone to see where the sub output is loudest - once I find where that area is, I would put the subwoofer there. Then I would play some music through the entire system to confirm the phase alignment.
I suppose one other dumb question while I am here, would be what connection would be ideal. A lot of people using REL subs say that you should split the front speaker cables into high level input which gives full range of musical information, and wire your subwoofer...I don't know what to make of this. Then there is the Line In input, which is white. But then there is LFE which is red. Are you supposed to plug red and white in together, or pick one? Which is actually best? I've never owned a subwoofer, so feel free to laugh.
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No, not really. You're correct, the material doesn't matter. I mean of course the material has certain properties that affect the performance of the driver, but the important thing is how it all performs as a complete system. You'll notice that the subjective terms all tend to coincidentally line up with people's intuitive thinking about the material: a silk dome is "soft" or "smooth", a metal dome is "cold" or... "metallic", etc. and so on. None of this is ever discernible in blind testing.
So yes, if you're using an AVR that's typically a proper crossover. As for the actual frequency, that's not a bad starting point but there's no universal best crossover frequency, it depends on the equipment and the room. You do want usable response below the crossover point, as the crossover filters are not a brick wall, but typically my understanding is you want a solid octave below the crossover. So for an 80Hz crossover, you want usable response down to around 40Hz. Usable response to my understanding means the F10 (where the response has dropped by 10dB relative to the rest of the speaker's reponse). What are your main speakers?
Solid enough plan if you aren't going to use measurements.
It's nonsense. If you have a line-level subwoofer out (typically an RCA jack), use that.
You only need to plug in both if you are using line outs carrying separate channels. Since a subwoofer line out is mono, you would connect the subwoofer line out to the LFE input on the sub.
If you look closely at the reviews, nearly 90% of the users report a positive change in sound quality. That alone gives you a good impression.
As for the crossover settings for your LR speakers that play down to 80 Hz, using the same 80 Hz frequency for the subwoofer will, together with the speakers’ own roll-off, create an acoustic Linkwitz–Riley filter. Of course, this is something you’ll need to try in your own setup to hear the results.
I’m not entirely sure, but in a home theater setup the subwoofer channel usually only contains low-frequency content anyway — so an additional low-pass filter probably isn’t necessary. Especially with multichannel mixes, this is typically the case.
As for the crossover settings for your LR speakers that play down to 80 Hz, using the same 80 Hz frequency for the subwoofer will, together with the speakers’ own roll-off, create an acoustic Linkwitz–Riley filter. Of course, this is something you’ll need to try in your own setup to hear the results.
I’m not entirely sure, but in a home theater setup the subwoofer channel usually only contains low-frequency content anyway — so an additional low-pass filter probably isn’t necessary. Especially with multichannel mixes, this is typically the case.
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- #13
I would be pairing the subwoofer to Energy Connoisseur C5s.
Understood on single RCA cable out from avr to LFE input
The filter would simply be on my old AVR that says "set speakers to small," then in the SVS app, I would set the pass to ie 80hz-100hz?
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If you're using the crossover in the AVR (which you enable when you set the speakers to "small"), then you don't want to add another low pass filter on top of that. Not only would that distort the crossover likely leading to a dip in the response through the crossover region, but you'd also be filtering out content from the LFE channel (which typically goes up to 120Hz). Disable the crossover in the SVS app, or set it to the maximum value if there is no option to disable it.
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- #15
Oh I understand what you guys are saying now. Which way is recommended/optimal? I would think that an actual number is better than "small speakers?" What frequency does "small speakers" pass? I know my old Marantz has small, medium, large.
Is there an advantage of having both on? So, the AVR limiting my main speakers to a low limit ie 80hz, so that it "focuses" on 80+, while my sub handles below that given its lowpass filter and cutting itself off at ie 80?
That’s simply not correct. Every reputable manufacturer uses different cone materials, and they absolutely don’t all sound the same. Audax, for example, uses Aerogel; SB Acoustics often use aluminum or paper; and so on. The differences are audible. I’ve personally experimented with various materials myself, so I know what I’m talking about.
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What do you think this measurement could be? This...texture thing? I don't discount these opinions and experiences, since science did not recognize/conceive of "umami" (glutamate) in perception of "taste" for a very long time, but people knew there was something more. It must be measurable. I just wonder what it could be.
That’s a great analogy — the idea that people could sense something for centuries before science had a formal measurement or even a word for it is spot on. In speakers and driver materials, this elusive “texture” could come from a combination of subtle, measurable phenomena that don’t show up on the most common graphs like a simple frequency response or THD. Some possibilities:
Time-domain behavior:
Micro-differences in transient response and decay — i.e. how fast the diaphragm stops moving — can create a sensation of “tightness” or “grain” that we hear as texture.
Breakup modes and resonance signatures:
Every material has its own pattern of small resonances and breakup modes at different frequencies. Even if they’re outside the obvious passband, they can introduce tiny colorations and intermodulations that give a speaker its character.
Differences in stiffness or damping could cause subtle variations under real-world dynamic conditions that you’d never see in a simple sine sweep. Think of it like tiny FM or AM effects riding on the music signal — hard to isolate in traditional tests, but audible.
Different cone materials flex and radiate differently across the surface. That subtly alters direct vs. reflected sound in the room and can feel like a different “texture.”
Materials like aluminum, paper, Aerogel, etc. store and return energy slightly differently — almost like different “fingerprints” in the time and frequency domains.
That “texture” you’re picking up is most likely a combination of these smaller effects that current standard measurements don’t explicitly highlight. Researchers are looking into tools like cumulative spectral decay, burst decay, intermodulation distortion under music-like signals, and time-domain analysis at different drive levels — all of which inch us closer to a measurable proxy for that subjective sense of texture.
And like umami, we may eventually nail down one or more metrics that directly reflect this perceptual “extra,” once we look with the right lens.
Time-domain behavior:
Micro-differences in transient response and decay — i.e. how fast the diaphragm stops moving — can create a sensation of “tightness” or “grain” that we hear as texture.
Breakup modes and resonance signatures:
Every material has its own pattern of small resonances and breakup modes at different frequencies. Even if they’re outside the obvious passband, they can introduce tiny colorations and intermodulations that give a speaker its character.
Differences in stiffness or damping could cause subtle variations under real-world dynamic conditions that you’d never see in a simple sine sweep. Think of it like tiny FM or AM effects riding on the music signal — hard to isolate in traditional tests, but audible.
Different cone materials flex and radiate differently across the surface. That subtly alters direct vs. reflected sound in the room and can feel like a different “texture.”
Materials like aluminum, paper, Aerogel, etc. store and return energy slightly differently — almost like different “fingerprints” in the time and frequency domains.
That “texture” you’re picking up is most likely a combination of these smaller effects that current standard measurements don’t explicitly highlight. Researchers are looking into tools like cumulative spectral decay, burst decay, intermodulation distortion under music-like signals, and time-domain analysis at different drive levels — all of which inch us closer to a measurable proxy for that subjective sense of texture.
And like umami, we may eventually nail down one or more metrics that directly reflect this perceptual “extra,” once we look with the right lens.
He did add a smiley!
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