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Uncompromising DIY loudspeakers

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Adi777

Adi777

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Okey, maybe stereo system is flawed - if it's really is, but how many recordings are there with music in a multi-channel system?
 

Tangband

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Okey, maybe stereo system is flawed - if it's really is, but how many recordings are there with music in a multi-channel system?
Its not ” maybe” - its a fact. For practical reasons, 2 channels are probably what most people are able to fit in their livingroom. But the future points towards mono with only one lifestyle-speaker with blutooth, unfortunately.
 
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Adi777

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Its not ” maybe” - its a fact. For practical reasons, 2 channels are probably what most people are able to fit in their livingroom. But the future points towards mono with only one lifestyle-speaker with blutooth, unfortunately.
Okey, but what about music, and if multi-channel system - which?
 
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Adi777

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I think I should write a slightly different name for this topic, more like - Least compromise stereo speakers for my future living room ;)
 
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Adi777

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...wallet, wife, aesthetic,physical space for....and so on ..:)
The wife is out, the wallet is thick, but not endlessly, aesthetics are of little importance ;)
Physical space? 5,5 meter width, 6,50 meter long, and almost 3 meter high. But I think first I should know what sound would suit me best. From large woofers, or maybe smaller ones. Listening from a distance or maybe closer.
 

DanielT

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The wife is out, the wallet is thick, but not endlessly, aesthetics are of little importance ;)
Physical space? 5,5 meter width, 6,50 meter long, and almost 3 meter high. But I think first I should know what sound would suit me best. From large woofers, or maybe smaller ones. Listening from a distance or maybe closer.
wallet is thick,...

Okay, as a first step then::)

 

dualazmak

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Interesting thread...

My "compromise" and "uncompromise" would be multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier "2-CH stereo" audio system to enjoy music using nice rigid existing still wonderful SP cabinet and SP drivers.

You would please find my latest system setup here on my project thread.
 

bothu

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Beautiful system Bo!

Can you tell us more about your speakers? I see som Scan-Speak in there. Other drivers? Crossover? Amps? :)

Speakers :
Tweeter - Scan-Speak D2904 710003 , https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/d/2/d2904-710003.pdf
Mid range - Scan-Speak 12MU 8731T00 , https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/1/2/12mu-8731t00.pdf
Bass - Scan-Speak 26W 8861T100 , https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/2/6/26w-8861t00.pdf
Sub. - PA Audio C-18 ELF , http://p-audio.co.uk/pdf/C_18ELF.pdf

Bass and Sub. are sealed speakers.
Sub. are compensated with Linkwitz Transform to 30 Hz.
X-overs are 80Hz - 265Hz - 3,9kHz, 24 dB/octave LR filters.
Amplifiers for each speaker 150 W/8 ohm with clipping indikators.
Preamp is based on OP, LM 4562. External power supply.

Listening and measuring with REW have helped me to find out levels for each driver.

Pictures on amp and pre-amp :

S 5.jpg



S 8.jpg



S 6.jpg


Record players have built in RIAA amps. Balanced out.
S 7.jpg


FR response speakers Without sub :
(Blue is noise-floor)

Dist 1.jpg

White noise at listening position both channels (with Sub.).


Vitt brus höger vid soffkanten höjd 95 cm.jpg



/ Bo Thunér
 

fineMen

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I now what is WAF, I wrote - I don't now, what is WAF as like a joke ;)

I heard that ... because they ... especially at ... Is it true?
I don't want to pick on You, but--does it make sense to ask for a non-compromising speaker whilst speculating wildly about readily measurable basics? I'm doing DIY speaker building for decades now, assisted heavily by measurements, some of those I invented myself ... to scrutinize quality. People still question the validity of common quality parameters, go figure!
 
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Adi777

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but--does it make sense to ask for a non-compromising speaker whilst speculating wildly about readily measurable basics?
I don't understand this, could you please clarify?
 
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Adi777

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W przypadku Beyma TPH150, wiem, że mój przyjaciel Mike Garrett z AVScience połączył je z niektórymi głośnikami niskotonowymi Acoustic Elegance. Umieścił je w przegrodzie, a IIRC użył minidsp. Każdego roku w Cedia mówi mi, że słyszy kilka systemów, które pasują do jego wydajności, ale żaden nie przewyższa ich.
You have some pictures of these speakers?
 
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Adi777

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I'm just thinking...
And what are Revel and Perlisten compromises?
Or Genelec, Neumann, Kii Three, Dutch & Dutch 8c?
 

bothu

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I'm just thinking...
And what are Revel and Perlisten compromises?
Or Genelec, Neumann, Kii Three, Dutch & Dutch 8c?
As an engineer you must make compromises the whole time. That is part of the work.
I think the Revel engineers can give you a long list of compromises.
Why is that interesting ?
 

tmuikku

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Adi777 here is thought process as tool for you to figure it all out yourself:
Make some simple root categories to juggle compromises around. These could be audio quality, cost, size and aesthetics. Now put them into priority order for your current project. If it is small bluetooth box for kitchen breakfast moments the priority order might be size, aesthetics, cost, audio quality. For retirement livingroom dream system the order might be audio quality, aesthetics, size and cost meaning that the cost doesnt matter but it has to have very good sound.

You can try figure out what the commercial speakers have had in their priority list! If marketing material is plenty then its probably aesthetics before absolutely top audio quality, perhaps size and cost too if its a small speaker, but you have to figure out the market they are targeted to etc. Little bit of imagination and you'll start figure out at least some compromises they have.

Here is how it works. You got a problem, say how to determine how many ways system should have? If there is one way what are the compromises? How these fall on your priority list? Lets use the kitchen radio project as example. One way speaker is simple, cost effective, can be big or small, but has numerous issues on audio quality mainly with SPL capability and bandwidth extension. Well, thats fine for the kitchen radio, nice, suits very well for that project and its priority list! If it was a party system instead then the trade-off with limited SPL and bandwidth already rules one way system out and you should test if two way system would do. Put some numbers in to some calculators on the web and you'll probably end up three way system at least, for parties.

Then you'd just continue solving problems you encounter, navigating between options thinking their trade-offs referencing them to your priority list. If you manage to solve all questions / problems so that there is no bad compromise, a trade-off, in the main priority, IOW costly drivers on low cost system or poor SPL capability on party system, then you can count it as "no compromise system". Perhaps some problems were missed because of lacking knowledge but its a good start already, tons of learning with every project.

Important lesson here is that there is always compromises, trade-offs, and different applications benefit from different set of compromises taken. If you want best sounding speaker, no comromises on audio quality, then try and push all the trade-offs on design problems to aesthetics, size and cost and there you have it. Its probably big and ugly and costly system :) it doesn't have to be if you manage to hide it and not go overboard with costs ;)

Also, don't go excess because it might limit options on some problems later on. For example if three ways are enough for a party system dont go with four just because. You could though, if some other issues later on in the design process demand it for better compromises here and there. This in mind, take mindset initially that anything is possible, to keep all options open. For example do not buy fashionable drivers before you have a design fully thought out, because they migh be the wrong ones! Timing is fixable with DSP etc. Many many things, complicated soup, better have some process to navigate through successfully.
 
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