Uncompromising DIY loudspeakers

[mightycicadalord]

If I were building an AV room on a realistic budget, I'd do something like Follgott's at avsforum.com/threads/follgotts-build-24-subwoofers-motorized-riser-curved-screen.1507428/ And I'd probably follow Geddes' construction/noise-control tips fairly closely (see Whole Book here.)

If that's not best bang per buck when you're already building a room, it's close enough & reasonably practical. If you really want to drop an extra $15k on a surround system, add a Trinnov.

Wanna know where that guy got his waveguides. Sick system.

Ah he cnc'd them from wood. Man I wish I had access to those sort of tools.

 

[Roland68]

Ich würde gerne Ihre Meinung zu kompromisslosen Lautsprechern wissen. Was sind Ihre Ideen für solche Lautsprecher und warum halten Sie sie für die besten?

There are no such thing as uncompromising loudspeakers because every design detail always involves a compromise.
Closed, bass reflex, open (baffle) if there is enough space, number of drivers, number of ways, arrangement of the drivers, type of tweeter, size of the tweeter, ditto for all other drivers, full-range drivers, full-range drivers multi-way, passive, active , digital active, subwoofer or not, etc.
The list is almost endless and for every design detail there is at least one advantage and one disadvantage, but often more than one.

The difference between a large 3-way floorstanding speaker and a much smaller 2-way loudspeaker alone shows that there is no ideal. Both undeniably have their advantages and their followers (which is why I have both types).

Build a Visaton Starlet with a few modifications, or build a DXT-MON or -WAVE from Heissmann-Acoustics (you get completely finished cabinets and parts sets) or buy Heco loudspeakers from the Victa 300 or 700 series and invest double the amount again into the crossover.
Any of these speakers will bring tears to the eyes of most RRP 10,000 - 20,000 (€/$) speaker owners.
.

 

[Prana Ferox]

For me, this is what "uncompromising-diy" looks like

Source: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/javs-modular-tower-wmtw-15fh520-beyma-12p80nd-v2-tpl-150h.2858234/

Trust me, look around the DIY part of that forum and 'uncompromising' takes on new meaning. Keep in mind these are only the front channels in these examples.

Of course these tend to be designed for more of a theater experience. For 2-channel without an AT screen you might want something a little more aesthetic... or is that too much of a compromise?

 

[morpheusX]

But if that makes you happy, go for it.

Trust me, look around the DIY part of that forum and 'uncompromising' takes on new meaning.

Yes, i know, these are mine, i'm hoping to have them running in the next two weeks

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/beyma-tpl150h-ae-td12m-beyma-15mc700nd-active.3147012/

 

[Roland68]

Trust me, look around the DIY part of that forum and 'uncompromising' takes on new meaning. Keep in mind these are only the front channels in these examples.

View attachment 207298

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Of course these tend to be designed for more of a theater experience. For 2-channel without an AT screen you might want something a little more aesthetic... or is that too much of a compromise?

All still toys.
A few years ago I was invited to someone who had converted two rooms with about 30 square meters (almost 3m high) into (walk-in) horn loudspeakers. The room in between, with only 15sqm, was to be the center and he had planned 2 x 20sqm rooms for the rear speakers. He had also thought of "ceiling loudspeakers" on the floor above.
150 dB distortion-free were not a problem. And he couldn't even turn the amplifier with 2 x 25 watt class A halfway up. A subwoofer was definitely not necessary, but he did have a backup plan for the basement.

 

[DMill]

Trust me, look around the DIY part of that forum and 'uncompromising' takes on new meaning. Keep in mind these are only the front channels in these examples.

View attachment 207298

View attachment 207299

Of course these tend to be designed for more of a theater experience. For 2-channel without an AT screen you might want something a little more aesthetic... or is that too much of a compromise?

Where do you put the sub?

 

[Ericglo]

On the Beyma TPH150s, I know my friend Mike Garrett of AVScience mated them with some Acoustic Elegance woofers. He put them into a baffle wall and IIRC used a minidsp. Every year at Cedia, he tells me that he hears a couple of systems that match his performance but none that exceed it.

 

[hdspeakerman]

Look for a Jeff Bagby design or kit. He was the best diy crossover person around. Gone too soon.

 

[Newman]

I would like to know your opinion on uncompromising loudspeakers. What are your ideas for such speakers and why do you consider them the best.

Putting the middle and high-frequency drivers in the same room location as the sub/bass drivers is compromising, therefore an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker needs to be of a sub – sat configuration. Furthermore, dispersed sub/bass sources are needed to avoid compromises in the bass smoothness, so assume a multi-sub build.

The Directiva project is IMO along the right lines: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-open-source-platform-speaker-project.20407/

Hey, I meant the stereo system for listening to music, not cinema room.

Restricting music to 2 channels is an unnecessary compromise, therefore an uncompromising system would not do that. In which case, an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker needs to be able to integrate without compromise between the many channels. This is extremely difficult if the various loudspeakers used are of strongly different configurations or technologies. Therefore an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker will use a configuration and technology that is consistently able to be used in a number of locations around the room.

PS some of the posts in this thread are conflating Uncompromising with OTT. It's not the same thing.

 

[AudioJester]

For me, this is what "uncompromising-diy" looks like

Source: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/javs-modular-tower-wmtw-15fh520-beyma-12p80nd-v2-tpl-150h.2858234/

Thats just brilliant! In so many ways!

 

[thewas]

This is DIY at the highest level beating most commercial products

More about it https://www.heimkinoverein.de/forum/thread/18456-wall-of-death-software-update/

and other superb projects from the same person http://www.hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/

 

[OWC]

Putting the middle and high-frequency drivers in the same room location as the sub/bass drivers is compromising, therefore an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker needs to be of a sub – sat configuration. Furthermore, dispersed sub/bass sources are needed to avoid compromises in the bass smoothness, so assume a multi-sub build.

The Directiva project is IMO along the right lines: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-open-source-platform-speaker-project.20407/


Restricting music to 2 channels is an unnecessary compromise, therefore an uncompromising system would not do that. In which case, an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker needs to be able to integrate without compromise between the many channels. This is extremely difficult if the various loudspeakers used are of strongly different configurations or technologies. Therefore an uncompromising DIY loudspeaker will use a configuration and technology that is consistently able to be used in a number of locations around the room.

PS some of the posts in this thread are conflating Uncompromising with OTT. It's not the same thing.

The issue is that most DIY'ers (as well as some manufacturers for that matter) have the wrong approach.

The vast majority doesn't asses the situation and than fit and design something accordingly, but start almost completely backwards by using some kind of driver/woofer that tickles their interest and come up with something around it. (often also in a very sub-optimal way)
Obviously compromises always have to be taken by definition, since we don't have an unlimited budget as well as a perfect listening space.
Plus the inevitable consequences of certain technical choices.
But in most cases the whole approach leads to a solution that is even further from being optimized.

Seen from a sound quality technical point of view, not a subjective taste point of view of course.

 

[OWC]

This is DIY at the highest level beating most commercial products

More about it https://www.heimkinoverein.de/forum/thread/18456-wall-of-death-software-update/

and other superb projects from the same person http://www.hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/

I wouldn't use commercial products as a main comparison of reference to begin with.
I have been in the DIY world for over 20 years and I can really say that most DIY projects are better thought out than a lot of commercial products.

That being said, this looks very impressive from a technical point of view. Big respect for that.
I have doubts about the practical side of the story though.
People like Floyd Toole already showed us very clearly that one doesn't need that many subwoofers for example

 

[DanielT]

This maybe? Pretty uncompromising.

See the whole house as a speaker, knock out walls, use whole walls as a baffle, use the whole basement as a bass horn with the mouth up into the listening room, the living room and so on. It's pretty uncompromising.

Within a reasonable level, build line speakers and significantly reduce ceilings and floor reflections.

Murphy's Corner Line Array project

Another update: the 'sandwich' panels are done! As you can see in the below pictures, Green Glue has been applied between the panels (2x12mm birch plywood) There are some panels missing, they will be done a bit later The next phase will be to put together the back of the speaker, paint it (with...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[thewas]

That being said, this looks very impressive from a technical point of view. Big respect for that.
I have doubts about the practical side of the story though.
People like Floyd Toole already showed us very clearly that one doesn't need that many subwoofers for example

Sure, you can get already with 4 subs relatively small position dependence, although in above case the 18 woofers are used for a SBA (which was later modified to a DBA) and to get below extreme properties:

Frequency Response: 3.8Hz - 120Hz (±1.5dB)
Harmonic Distortion (25Hz): 0.1% @ 100dB
0.5% at 110dB
Maximum level: >130 dB @ >20 Hz
130dB at 20Hz
124dB at 10Hz
119dB at 5Hz

 

[Tangband]

I would like to know your opinion on uncompromising loudspeakers. What are your ideas for such speakers and why do you consider them the best.

There is no such a thing as an uncompromising loudspeaker , but some technical options exist for me, for a loudspeaker for home-use:

1. A 4- or 5-way loudspeaker with low doppler/IMD distortion.
2. It should be an all active loudspeaker with dsp crossover and roomcorrection.
3. No waveguides are needed, because of the many crossover points.
4.The other chain of components in the stereo must be of top-class. No need for an uncompromised loudspeaker if the sound source is only 320 Kbit spotify.
5. Each speaker should be able to play 105 dB inroom, 4 metres away with distortion less than 1 % 100-20000 Hz.
6.Each speaker should be able to play 96 dB inroom, 4 metres away with less distortion than 0,5 % 50-20000 Hz.

 

[OWC]

Sure, you can get already with 4 subs relatively small position dependence, although in above case the 18 woofers are used for a SBA (which was later modified to a DBA) and to get below extreme properties:

Frequency Response: 3.8Hz - 120Hz (±1.5dB)
Harmonic Distortion (25Hz): 0.1% @ 100dB
0.5% at 110dB
Maximum level: >130 dB @ >20 Hz
130dB at 20Hz
124dB at 10Hz
119dB at 5Hz

I would not recommend those levels for long periods of time, not even at those lower frequencies.
It's hard to see, but the room doesn't seem to be very big to begin with.

Incl room gain, those figures kind of beats me, for music it doesn't make sense, for movies/film a maybe.
Hoping that the audio engineer just didn't put a brickwall/dc HP filter at around 20Hz on the mix (which happens often)

The lower distortion numbers also kind of beats me, the audibility for distortion for frequencies below 80-100Hz are extremely low.
At best at 5-10% THD figures are thereabouts. (depending on frequency as well SPL)

Like I said before, the technical aspect of it deserves a lot of credits, not a single bad word about it, but I have many serious doubts about the practicality and overall system efficiency of it. That's also the main reason why it's not so popular to begin with.
A very simple multi-sub system will already give a very satisfying result for most people.

Costs to benefit ratio is extremely small. Putting A LOT of effort in getting frequencies below 10-20Hz right.
While the benefits of those frequencies (if they are already in the mix to begin with), is debatable at best.
Or to say it on a more objective way, far away from being obvious at best.

For example, I would have split the array for those ultra low frequencies, since the wavelength become so big even an "array" is not gonna have any practical benefits anymore. Depending on the room dimensions (first room modes), but say roughly from 30Hz and up use the array.
Below that point is done by a couple of 18-21 inch corner subwoofers, ideally as close to the listener as possible.
Their efficiency as well as distortion figures will be miles better

I think it's very much debatable that those ultra low frequencies even "belong" to the audio domain.
A third harmonic would be around 15-40Hz , even when audible it would be extremely hard to tell if that harmonic would have a negative impact on the listening experience.

I understand the novelty of recreating the recording as clean as possible.
But the line between novelty and usefulness is ultra thin at this point.

People always only seem to think in audio terms when the word compromise falls.
But this is a good example that the room, surrounding as well as budget is heavily compromised.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking of the extreme, low frequencies and subwoofer:

Ultra-low frequency Rotary Subwoofer

What is this? Ultra-low frequency Rotary Subwoofer I've never heard of. Seems exciting. Anyone know anything more about it? Is it possible to get it for Hifi? Or? I have no idea.:) So for frequencies in if the audible range above 19 Hz? But how to solve it? What would you gain from that? That...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
In my eyes rather meaningless, but a rather fun nonsense on the other hand. Maybe if you are an extreme home theater person and want to shake half or all of the furniture, the house ..

 

[OWC]

There is no such a thing as an uncompromising loudspeaker , but some technical options exist for me, for a loudspeaker for home-use:

1. A 4- or 5-way loudspeaker with low doppler/IMD distortion.
2. It should be an all active loudspeaker with dsp crossover and roomcorrection.
3. No waveguides are needed, because of the many crossover points.
4.The other chain of components in the stereo must be of top-class. No need for an uncompromised loudspeaker if the sound source is only 320 Kbit spotify.
5. Each speaker should be able to play 105 dB inroom, 4 metres away with distortion less than 1 % 100-20000 Hz.
6.Each speaker should be able to play 96 dB inroom, 4 metres away with less distortion than 0,5 % 50-20000 Hz.

Since when are crossovers a problem?
I would also like to see another decent solution to waveguides that will give you a nice constant directivity.
Except for an almost omni-direction source, there aren't many

A compromise is only as strong as were the audible limits and thresholds are.
So going below those audible thresholds is maybe fun on a nerdy on a subjective way.
Objectively speaking, from a scientific point of view it's total nonsense of-course.
That's like opting for a TV that can do 2000 fps.
The idea is fun, the practicality of it is totally gone.

To use the 320kbit as an example, just browsing through the AES library will give you plenty of papers that show that even professionals and talented people in the field have a VERY hard time hearing the differences in a very controlled situation (often with even headphones) compared to lossless audio formats. In some cases the results are barely better than just flipping a coin (which is just guessing).

The questions that have to be asked instead, is how far your situation (incl your ears) is removed from those highly controlled tests.
In most cases the background noise is already much higher to begin with for example.

 

[thewas]

A very simple multi-sub system will already give a very satisfying result for most people.

Surely, that project isn't though just that but an extreme implementation also for movies and very low seat to seat deviation, more a (extreme) hobby task of some very passionate hobbyist who wants to put the bar as high as he can and where the long design and implementation path is rather the target than the final result.