Uncoloured phono cartridges

[muslhead]

The 681 series (and the equivalent Pickering XV-15 series) were MI (moving iron). The 881 series (and Pickering XSV models) were MM (moving magnet). I've owned them all, and the 881 was superior, IMO. Much of that could have been due to the more advanced line contact stylus found in the various 881 models.

It was, at the time, one of the only that could play quadraphonic records (because of its shibata stylus.

 

[watchnerd]

I understand and don't disagree with the "theory" of different stylus shapes but let's see it in measurements..... as Amir has shown over and over "theory" does not always measure as expected. In my subjective experience the advanced shapes can work better if set up properly but all that set up goes out the window when my records vary from "Dynaflex" to "200 gram" thickness and different grove widths between 1955 and later and even mono and stereo. Conical shapes don't seem to care much about any of it. How much better or worse do the advanced shapes really work when presented with the reality of 60 years production variations? I don't know but would like to see actual measurements rather than opinions based on "what should be true" . I admit to a bias that "flat response" is by far the most important element and that can be easily measured and confirmed. I think it would be interesting to objectively dig a little deeper into the other issues before accepting theory as fact.

It's really easy to measure yourself at home if you have a test disk.

You don't even need specialized measurement gear as most cartridges will start to audibly mis-track or even skip on the hardest torture tracks.

(I've heard some people say carts can even jump out of the groove, but I've never witnessed that)

 

[JeffS7444]

If I were to upgrade to something with a nude mounted, fine line-type stylus, I figured one obvious pick would be the Ortofon 2M Bronze @440 USD, since I've already got some experience with the 2M series.

But I also found this $200 Audio Technica with Shibata stylus and must say I'm intrigued:
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-vm95sh

Although not the exact models, I did find this "ABX" comparison interesting, and from a most unexpected source:
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ortofon-2m-blue-versus-audio-technica-vm95ml

Spoiler: My guess is...

Based on experience with Ortofon 2M red and earlier A-T 95E, I think File 1 is the 2M Blue and File 2 is VM95ML, as #1 seems to have much more extended high frequencies, while #2 sounds much like like what I think of as the classic moving magnet sound. Would be happy to be proven wrong, given the price difference!

 

[watchnerd]

If I were to upgrade to something with a nude mounted, fine line-type stylus, I figured one obvious pick would be the Ortofon 2M Bronze @440 USD, since I've already got some experience with the 2M series.

But I also found this $200 Audio Technica with Shibata stylus and must say I'm intrigued:
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-vm95sh

Although not the exact models, I did find this "ABX" comparison interesting, and from a most unexpected source:
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ortofon-2m-blue-versus-audio-technica-vm95ml

Spoiler: My guess is...

Based on experience with Ortofon 2M red and earlier A-T 95E, I think File 1 is the 2M Blue and File 2 is VM95ML, as #1 seems to have much more extended high frequencies, while #2 sounds much like like what I think of as the classic moving magnet sound. Would be happy to be proven wrong, given the price difference!

The best MM/MI I've heard with a nude fine line stylus is the Nagaoka MP-500.

It's got a better motor than the 2M Bronze.

But it's not cheap for MM/MI.

 

[win]

Thanks, I'm having trouble swallowing the ~$50+ cost of a typical test LP but I guess if I must, I must. Capacitance and resistance of cables + phono preamp are known.

whatever you do, don't buy the test LP from somewhere like Amazon. I went through three of them before getting one that wasn't used, scratched up, sleeve ripped, etc. People just return them after tuning with them. Shameless!

 

[levimax]

It's really easy to measure yourself at home if you have a test disk.

You don't even need specialized measurement gear as most cartridges will start to audibly mis-track or even skip on the hardest torture tracks.

(I've heard some people say carts can even jump out of the groove, but I've never witnessed that)

My test record "The ultimate analoge test LP" does not have the "torture tracking test" .... I can measure a slightly higher distortion on the reference level test tracks with the concial stylus compared to the advanced shapes but nothing huge. I guess since the "torture tracks" are music you can't really measure distortion as a percentage which I think would be interesting.

My "torture test" is "Whole Lota Love" Led Zepplin II RL version.... I use it to set my ADC levels (highest level on any record I own) and on some carts / set ups they will jump out of the groove Since the music is so distorted anyway and my copy is not pristine I can't hear much difference between carts on this track unfortunately.

 

[Jas0_0]

Sure, it's called a CD player.

Yeah I tried that, but couldn’t get my records in that fiddly little drawer thing.

 

[Robin L]

The good Shure cartridges. V15. Alas I think Shure only makes DJ cartridges now. The V15 was accused of tape like highs. As lp was usually sourced from tape...... Well what would you expect?

As far as I can tell, Shure isn't making any cartridges these days.

https://www.shure.com/en-US/about-u...garding-the-discontinuation-of-phono-products

 

[watchnerd]

As far as I can tell, Shure isn't making any cartridges these days.

https://www.shure.com/en-US/about-u...garding-the-discontinuation-of-phono-products

Yes, they stopped years ago.

 

[orangejello]

Subjective comments about "neutrality" and "detail" without measurements showing flat response don't make sense to me on a scientific forum. More detail can easily be caused by boosted highs and neutrality to one person could just be their preference. The Denon 103 carts come with measurements showing the are "flat" (Neutral / uncolored) and I and others have measured them to have "flat response" especially compared to other carts. If these carts are "lacking" in other areas (like detail and increased IGD) compared to other flat measuring carts that should be able to be shown with measurements i.e. flat FR and less distortion. I am not sure how "detail" would show up in measurements (better tracking ability ?) but again it should be able to be measured.

I agree with you about measurements being ideal. But I don't have the equipment to do that. So absent the ability to measure (which is in itself difficult because setup can seriously affect the result) I turn vinyl bigotry on its head and use CDs as the arbiter of neutrality. I try to use CDs that are AAD and compare them to the vinyl hoping that the same mix was used for both media. This helps with the issues that you brought up. In setting up a cartridge I try to get the overall presentation to be similar to the CD. If the high end is jacked up on the cartridge, it is pretty apparent. It is one of the reasons that (I know other will disagree with this) cartridge loading can be so important with MC cartridges. Often you will get a kind of sizzle in the high end that might be arresting on first listen, but does not ultimately wear well.

Regarding the Denon 103, it may measure flat, but in my experience it is not the last word in performance.

As to why anyone would bother with all of this - hey it is a hobby. And the challenge of getting a great vinyl rig going is interesting. As to the end result, I tend to prefer listening to vinyl. It sometimes sounds better to me than CDs and streaming. But there are plenty of digital recordings that knock me out too.

 

[orangejello]

It's really easy to measure yourself at home if you have a test disk.

You don't even need specialized measurement gear as most cartridges will start to audibly mis-track or even skip on the hardest torture tracks.

(I've heard some people say carts can even jump out of the groove, but I've never witnessed that)

I used to use some test records from Shure. It was pretty obvious which cartridges track well and which don't. But once again you have to be sure that you optimized the setup.

I'd extend this to "advanced stylus shape", including FG / Replicant / line contact / Shibata, with different trade-offs amongst them.

They all generally are capable of tracking better than the basic conical / elliptical shapes (if more finnicky to set up), and in some cases (e.g. Shibata) were specifically designed to be linear into the ultrasonic regions to support quad / CD-4.

You are probably right about that. It just so happens that the cartridges that I liked best had micro ridge styli.

There is also the issue of the interplay between the stylus shape, the cantilever and its compliance and damping. When all of this is balanced out you get a lot less transient noise from the scratches and imperfection in the vinyl. I found that cartridges with more advanced stylus designs were quieter in this respect.

 

[mhardy6647]

The good Shure cartridges. V15. Alas I think Shure only makes DJ cartridges now. The V15 was accused of tape like highs. As lp was usually sourced from tape...... Well what would you expect?

Shure threw in the towel completely on cartridges a couple of years ago (May 2018, per their 'statement'/Press Release).
https://www.shure.eu/company/press/2018/phono-statement

 

[anmpr1]

Subjective comments about "neutrality" and "detail" without measurements showing flat response don't make sense to me on a scientific forum.

First, no one is really doing a takedown of phono cartridges anymore. David Rich has done some excellent reviews of the old Shure and some current AT cartridges (at the Secrets of Home Theater site). But the quantity of his reviewing output is like the quantity of voltage from most MC cartridges--very limited.

If you go through the back issues of Stereo Review and Audio, and look at the phono cartridge reports, reviewers often commented that FR measurements didn't always correlate with what might be expected, from a sonic standpoint. That is, sometimes cartridges with a rising high end didn't sound 'hot' as would be expected.

However it is, with phonograph playback there are so many variables (arm/cartridge resonance, tracking error problems associated with alignment, mistracking, diamond shape, cantilever materials and on and on) that a FR profile is just a beginning place to start.

Unlike the old days, it is very difficult to go to a stereo store and compare a half dozen cartridge brands. It used to be routine and really a trivial thing to do. I recall buying gear and the dealer throwing in (or selling at their cost) a phono cartridge. Shure, Stanton/Pickering, ADC, Ortofon, Sonus, AT/Signet, Empire, and others I can't recall off the top of my head. No one paid anything close to list for any of those. And each year you simply bought a new replacement stylus assembly.

The Japanese MC scene changed all that. When that took off it got ridiculous. The 'undergournd' magazines identified this month's cartridge that 'blew away' last month's top choice, and you could bet that in the next issue there would be another you'd never heard of that blew away the current top pick. They all had strange names, and were sold more like jewelry, or Swiss watches, than mere phono cartridges mean to play records. Prices rose like no tomorrow.

I gave up long ago on the idea that phono will ever measure (or sound) as good as digits done right. But records are fun, if you have them. If you don't I don't see the point in getting involved. Phono playback is really a hardware money funnel. If dollars are not an issue, then why not? It's just a hobby, after all.

 

[Sal1950]

Back in the day I hung my hat in the high compliance, light tracking force, light weight cartridge/arm school of thought.
I owned a couple of the Stanton 681 varieties and the 881S which I personally believed to be the high point of MM cartridge design IME.
I got dragged into the MC world only because that's what you had to have to get any respect in the high end world of the 80s.
My Dynavector Ruby with it's solid ruby cantilever was so cool to point out to the unwashed.
I never was able to afford the ones with the pure diamond cantilever but IMO the red ruby one looked way cooler anyhow. LOL

Brother to me it was like when Moses parted The Red Sea with the purchase of my first CD player. I no longer had to worry over that my expensive stylus was starting to wear out after a few months and permanently doing damage to my precious squashed hockey pucks. I probably spent more money replacing perfectly good cartridges than I'd ever want to think about.
Ya ever took your cartridge to your local high end store for inspection on his super trick microscope and had him tell you "it's just fine, no need to replace this beauty"? NEVER HAPPENED

 

[anmpr1]

Ya ever took your cartridge to your local high end store for inspection on his super trick microscope and had him tell you "it's just fine, no need to replace this beauty"? NEVER HAPPENED

The local McIntosh dealer had one of those four figure Wild Heerbrugg stereoscopes. He'd check your diamond 'for free'. I always knew that when I walked away I'd have a new cartridge in my pocket, and less dollars in my wallet. Very funny memory!

 

[JeffS7444]

whatever you do, don't buy the test LP from somewhere like Amazon. I went through three of them before getting one that wasn't used, scratched up, sleeve ripped, etc. People just return them after tuning with them. Shameless!

Thanks for the warning; I've sent an inquiry directly to Dr. Feickert.

 

[levimax]

Brother to me it was like when Moses parted The Red Sea with the purchase of my first CD player

No no no..... you gave up too easy! Maybe your VTA was off or maybe it was the VTF or maybe the Azimuth or maybe the anti-skate or maybe you were using the wrong alignment protractor.

 

[watchnerd]

No no no..... you gave up too easy! Maybe your VTA was off or maybe it was the VTF or maybe the Azimuth or maybe the anti-skate or maybe you were using the wrong alignment protractor.

Or all those things are perfect and the record has an off-center hole.

 

[Soniclife]

Ya ever took your cartridge to your local high end store for inspection on his super trick microscope and had him tell you "it's just fine, no need to replace this beauty"? NEVER HAPPENED

I've had that happen with a dealer checking my cart, said it was worn but not worn out, and he knew it was costing him a £1k replacement sale.

 

[Soniclife]

All the 103 series (which is now down to the plane jane 103 and the R) came with that print out. My 110 and 160 didn't have it, and I don't recall whether my 301 series had them--I don't think they did.

My DL 304 came with the print out, it's very flat to 20k, then rises slightly to 50k. I never loved that cart for whatever reason though.