Unbiased Perspective Please - AT-LP5X + AT-VM95EN + AT-PEQ30 to Sonos Fives w/ Sub

[Connor1a]

Also consider that the VM95 body is the same for all of them with the exception with where they're made - China for the C, and Japan for the others. To that end could just swap styli between bodies.

This is very interesting. I’d not realized the “C” designation meant China. I’d only picked up the cart to play some of my used albums that were of poor quality. The “C” seems much more forgiving (but also far less detailed etc)…

I don't see a reason why you'd need a different headshell, unless the Fluance are very light and the arm doesn't have enough counterweight to balance something more of typical weight. I very much doubt that's the case.

Once again, I’m speaking from a position of lacking knowledge. I’d spoken to Fluance pre-sales support and was told that the RT85 could use the VM95 carts, but would require a Fluance headshell. However, I think I was led astray. From digging into the situation more fully, it appears that the AT headshells should screw right into the Fluance tonearm and then I should be able to rebalance the tonearm, check that the cart is square and then I’d be cook’n. The only “bad” news is that the RT85 comes with a fairly good cart (Ortofon 2M Blue) so I may need to rethink how many carts I actually need, but that’ll be part of the fun. I have 3 AT-HS6 headshells… My next question(s) will be how the Ortofon compares to the VM95ML / VM95SH… I’m thinking those would be the closest AT competitors….?

If you ask what you should get on an audio forum, the majority of respondents will tell you to get what they have, or what they wish they had.

This……… This is truth.

The number one thing is to get something that has an arm that's competent enough to host the cartridges you're interest in, and that won't damage your records.

JP - You’ve been an awesome contributor. Thank you so very much for your time and thinking. It’s been incredibly helpful. It’s all too often difficult to find someone willing to share their expertise / experience without being critical… I really appreciate it.

 

[Connor1a]

Sonos speakers aren't the absolute best you can get for the money, but they are also far from the worst. There is a lot of prejudice against Sonos because they're seen as too mainstream, too much DSP, whatever.

The challenge with Sonos right now is the software. In fact, it’s always been the software. The speakers themselves have generally been good performers. I put in a bunch of years in the IT space where I dealt with closed ecosystem companies like Apple and Cisco. Their hardware was one thing, but the software made or broke the offering. Sonos HW tests good, but without the associated firmware and app, the HW isn’t much more than a heavy paperweight. Don’t get me wrong, even with the current app fiasco, which is fueling a ton of consumer hate at the moment, I’m still a Sonos fanboy, but I have to admit they’re starting to test my patience. And I’m a guy who, due to my background, tends to be much more forgiving / patient / willing to use workarounds with flaky technology. Based upon responses from all the fine folks here, I even went so far as to destroy my apartment to move my Fives to new locations to get better sound from them. It took me three days to rearrange furniture etc, but my sound quality improved (and my place looks better for it!). Anyway, I’m trying to say that I believe the HW is indeed capable good quality sound, but Sonos shoots themselves in the foot by monkeying around with the firmware / app which affects SQ and that’s the bit that has consumers furious at the moment… Their stock has gone from ~20$/share to ~14$/share in the last 6 months. It’s a big deal…

 

[Connor1a]

This is very important to nail.

I’m on it. I watched several YouTube videos last night. It’s not rocket science. It’s just fiddly… I’m seeing why this is all considered a “hobby”. Learning about the various topics limited to TTs is consuming. Preamps is another rabbit hole. I can’t wait for amps…. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Verig]

The deck actually had 2 options. One with the Ortofon 2M Blue. The other with the Nagaoka MP-110. Were I to guess, I mean with me knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, I’d guess that Fluance took the money they could have put into a phono stage and USB connection and put it into the stylus.

I didn't notice Nagaoka. That's a really good cart too. Interesting. It's like Fluance... actually wants to sell a good set. No one in this price point offers anything beyond the basic AT95. There are even $1k turntables that come with 2M Red/AT95 (even if they're sold under different name like Music Hall Spirit). Both 2M Blue and MP-110 are absolutely usable and fine as is. And expensive, as you noticed.

So I’m interested to see how the build quality differs. Particularly the plastic plinth of the LP5X vs the MDF of the RT85. I’ve no idea how to do an A/B sound comparison, but I’ll attempt it and will report back (on a purely qualitative basis - a purely unsophisticated qualitative basis).

Considering you want to control vibrations MDF wins hands down.
I started writing how I usually perceive the difference but let's just see how you find it. Qualitative is fine as we already have data on both decks.

 

[JP]

This is very interesting. I’d not realized the “C” designation meant China. I’d only picked up the cart to play some of my used albums that were of poor quality. The “C” seems much more forgiving (but also far less detailed etc)…

It doesn’t - it means conical. Just happens to also be made in China.

There are a lot of opinions on the “forgiveness” of different profiles but mostly it’ll depend on where in the groove the damage is. Conical, elliptical, and line types will scan different areas of the groove.

Once again, I’m speaking from a position of lacking knowledge. I’d spoken to Fluance pre-sales support and was told that the RT85 could use the VM95 carts, but would require a Fluance headshell. However, I think I was led astray. From digging into the situation more fully, it appears that the AT headshells should screw right into the Fluance tonearm and then I should be able to rebalance the tonearm, check that the cart is square and then I’d be cook’n. The only “bad” news is that the RT85 comes with a fairly good cart (Ortofon 2M Blue) so I may need to rethink how many carts I actually need, but that’ll be part of the fun. I have 3 AT-HS6 headshells… My next question(s) will be how the Ortofon compares to the VM95ML / VM95SH… I’m thinking those would be the closest AT competitors….?

2M blue is an elliptical so there will be IGD - just a matter of how obvious it is and how sensitive you are to it. I’d take the 95ML over it any day. On outer grooves I’m still waiting for someone that can differentiate the blue from a Kleos.

 

[kemmler3D]

The challenge with Sonos right now is the software. In fact, it’s always been the software. The speakers themselves have generally been good performers. I put in a bunch of years in the IT space where I dealt with closed ecosystem companies like Apple and Cisco. Their hardware was one thing, but the software made or broke the offering. Sonos HW tests good, but without the associated firmware and app, the HW isn’t much more than a heavy paperweight. Don’t get me wrong, even with the current app fiasco, which is fueling a ton of consumer hate at the moment, I’m still a Sonos fanboy, but I have to admit they’re starting to test my patience. And I’m a guy who, due to my background, tends to be much more forgiving / patient / willing to use workarounds with flaky technology. Based upon responses from all the fine folks here, I even went so far as to destroy my apartment to move my Fives to new locations to get better sound from them. It took me three days to rearrange furniture etc, but my sound quality improved (and my place looks better for it!). Anyway, I’m trying to say that I believe the HW is indeed capable good quality sound, but Sonos shoots themselves in the foot by monkeying around with the firmware / app which affects SQ and that’s the bit that has consumers furious at the moment… Their stock has gone from ~20$/share to ~14$/share in the last 6 months. It’s a big deal…

Can't speak to the software end except that I've used other people's Sonos stuff and found it more or less functional but not necessarily impressive. Have heard about the new app being a total disaster.

If you want to go to separates and use the WiiM streamers instead (fairly economical) you can do as well or better in sound and get similar multiroom / streaming capabilities.

 

[Verig]

2M blue is an elliptical so there will be IGD - just a matter of how obvious it is and how sensitive you are to it. I’d take the 95ML over it any day. On outer grooves I’m still waiting for someone that can differentiate the blue from a Kleos.

I'm not technically disagreeing with you. However I'd like to point out that most people listen to their records with an elliptical happily so the problem is not that bad.
Of course money plays a part. AT95ML is dirt cheap compared to some offerings and even Ortofon 2M Bronze and Concorde Music Bronze are nearing $400 nowadays so many won't go there. But still, good quality elliptical carts are just fine.

 

[JP]

Yes, the qualifiers are important, and some ellipticals of the same dimensions will also track better than the blue.

 

[ban25]

I’m with you. I ordered the Fluance last night. It’ll be here within the next few days. I’ve read a stack of reviews. I realize reviews can be “purchased”, but there are a few critical reviews out there as well. I really like that they’ve kept the deck fully analog. It intuitively makes a lot of sense to keep all that EMI out of the deck and away from the sensitive cartridge.

The deck actually had 2 options. One with the Ortofon 2M Blue. The other with the Nagaoka MP-110. Were I to guess, I mean with me knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, I’d guess that Fluance took the money they could have put into a phono stage and USB connection and put it into the stylus. Well, I’l restate that, I know nothing about turntables, but I’m wicked good with commercial cost cases. There’s a 110$ price difference between the Ortofon 2M Blue and AT-VM95E (stock LP5X stylus) styli. That’s an easy equation to solve for. On a price only basis, the Ortofon actually compares to the AT-VM95ML (slightly below the AT-VM95SH). So I’m interested to see how the build quality differs. Particularly the plastic plinth of the LP5X vs the MDF of the RT85. I’ve no idea how to do an A/B sound comparison, but I’ll attempt it and will report back (on a purely qualitative basis - a purely unsophisticated qualitative basis).

Thanks greatly for your reply.

The truth is, vinyl had its heyday in the 70s and the absolute pinnacle of development was in the 80s. At that time, companies like Sony, Denon, Panasonic, and others invested millions of dollars in R&D to design the highest quality decks for vinyl playback, up to and including technologies like active stabilization in the cartridge/tonearm. With the advent of the CD, vinyl became an obsolete technology and all of that went away. Except for Technics (Panasonic), where their best, most sophisticated and reliable turntables were sustained by the club/DJ market through the decades.

Why are there so many belt-drive tables on the market now that the vinyl renaissance has happened? Because any Tom, Dick and Harry with a router table and a rubber band can make one! It's the same with speakers -- anybody with a skill saw and some wood glue can buy some off-the-shelf drivers and make a set. You just paid $500 for a piece of MDF, an acrylic platter, and a made-in-China tonearm. Of course there is aesthetic differentiation to consider and at a certain point, Hi-Fi basically becomes furniture. Companies like Fluance and Pro-Ject can invest all the time they like into the finish and the weight (trust me, they aren't doing that at this pricepoint), but what they can never do is replicate the capital investment that the major CE companies made in the 80s to take the technology up to the state of the art. The market just isn't big enough to support that anymore, and so that essentially leaves Technics as the last man standing, still to this day (and some notable exceptions that I am not too familiar with, like some Thorens DD tables, etc.).

You can actually measure W+F with an app on your phone (RPM, as one example). Might be an interesting test for you to do so when you get your new table.

 

[Verig]

You just paid $500 for a piece of MDF, an acrylic platter, and a made-in-China tonearm.

There's a $170 retail cart included so the price for the deck becomes quite fair.

Of course there is aesthetic differentiation to consider and at a certain point, Hi-Fi basically becomes furniture. Companies like Fluance and Pro-Ject can invest all the time they like into the finish and the weight (trust me, they aren't doing that at this pricepoint),

Good Pro-Ject models start at $800-1200. I've owned two. So no, they're not doing it for less than $500.

I don't completely disagree with your point but it's a bit harsh. Fluance has very decent specs, comes with a warranty and is ready to play as is for a long time. Buying 40-50 year old kit is not something everyone is willing to risk, the prices have climbed considerably and you likely need a new cart which is additional $200 or so. And you need to know what you're buying. There are tons of mediocre old TTs fetching quite the money.

 

[ban25]

There's a $170 retail cart included so the price for the deck becomes quite fair.


Good Pro-Ject models start at $800-1200. I've owned two. So no, they're not doing it for less than $500.

I don't completely disagree with your point but it's a bit harsh. Fluance has very decent specs, comes with a warranty and is ready to play as is for a long time. Buying 40-50 year old kit is not something everyone is willing to risk, the prices have climbed considerably and you likely need a new cart which is additional $200 or so. And you need to know what you're buying. There are tons of mediocre old TTs fetching quite the money.

I'm not advocating buying 40 year old gear. Newly manufactured SL-1200s are in stock today. The Audio Technica that the OP replaced with the Fluance was new as well, and likely a better performer, especially when the Fluance belt wears after a couple years.

 

[Petrushka]

Sonos person here. I don’t have any Sonos speakers in main listening areas, but I have two Ports and thinking about a third.

If money isn’t tight, get a Port as your distribution hub.

 

[ban25]

Here's a comparison I just did of my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO ($600, though my version with walnut finish and acrylic platter runs a bit more) and my Technics SL-1200MK7 ($1100):

This was the best I could get out of the Pro-Ject over 4 runs. The Technics by comparison was the same every time.

 

[mike70]

Here's a comparison I just did of my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO ($600, though my version with walnut finish and acrylic platter runs a bit more) and my Technics SL-1200MK7 ($1100):

View attachment 384158

This was the best I could get out of the Pro-Ject over 4 runs. The Technics by comparison was the same every time.

I told you ... technics DD quartz lock everytime.
New or vintage in decent shape, and forget about it

 

[Verig]

I'm not advocating buying 40 year old gear. Newly manufactured SL-1200s are in stock today. The Audio Technica that the OP replaced with the Fluance was new as well, and likely a better performer, especially when the Fluance belt wears after a couple years.

A new SL-1200 depending on the model is $1-2k so I don't quite see the point. I was thinking something more in the original price bracket. For that money you have quite many good options anyway. Will a thousand dollars more expensive deck be better than Fluance? Certainly.

Belts wear, yes, you're supposed to replace them once in a while, not compare performance when the belt is badly worn. Not an issue but normal maintenance and it takes a long time for a belt to go bad.

AT5 is a DD in plastic chassis. It has poor specs for stability and rumble at -50 is very high indeed. That's 20dB worse than my old DD (which matches Technics SL-1200 mkI). I can see you like DDs but are you quite sure about this? Belt drives have some good qualities and them being very simple is not a bad thing in the price point.

 

[mike70]

You can find a Pioneer plx-1000 DD in the 700 USD price tag ... another good option under 1k.

 

[Multicore]

Here's a comparison I just did of my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO ($600, though my version with walnut finish and acrylic platter runs a bit more) and my Technics SL-1200MK7 ($1100):

View attachment 384158

This was the best I could get out of the Pro-Ject over 4 runs. The Technics by comparison was the same every time.

In both of those the lowest modulating frequency is about 0.55 Hz. What's that from? Too low to be disk eccentricity.

 

[ban25]

In both of those the lowest modulating frequency is about 0.55 Hz. What's that from? Too low to be disk eccentricity.

That's from the drive itself. There's no vinyl disc on the platter in that case.

 

[ban25]

That's from the drive itself. There's no vinyl disc on the platter in that case.

Sorry, misread. This is from the phone app's accelerometer measurement, with the ideal target being a perfect sine wave following the rotation of the platter.

 

[JP]

In both of those the lowest modulating frequency is about 0.55 Hz. What's that from? Too low to be disk eccentricity.

Not really. One revolution at 33.33RPM is 1.8s = 0.555Hz.