Unbiased Perspective Please - AT-LP5X + AT-VM95EN + AT-PEQ30 to Sonos Fives w/ Sub

[ban25]

To be honest, when I first purchased Sonos, I was more interested in a speaker “system” that I could easily distribute throughout my home than I was a high fidelity set of audiophile speakers. In fact, my wicked little secret is that I sold a set of very nice cherry B&W 603s + a CNT to fund my first set of Sonos speakers. I know, the horror. So yes, I am ok with the sound of my Sonos Fives, but I do have some appreciation for their limitations. The thing about Sonos is that once you let them into your home, them grow on you. It’s like putting 2 hamsters in the same cage and waking up one morning to find that you have 25 of the little buggers. They multiply because they’re so danged convenient and they really do sound OK vs other, similar options (active, network attached loudspeakers). Putting aside the current app / firmware fiasco, Sonos does have compelling use cases. So when I say I think the Sonos sound is good, I take all that into account as well. Sonically, my old B&Ws (with the right amp) would blow the doors off my Sonos Fives, but then I’d need a ton of gear to replicate the Sonos functionality while using analog speakers (though the options today are far richer than 10 years ago when I first bought Sonos). Anyway, that’s my story. TYVM for the post. I take your point on the KEFs and I don’t disagree. I’d love to pull the trigger right now, but I need to wait just a bit longer……..

I used to have a whole-home Sonos system. The problem I had with them is that the current fiasco that has the CEO publicly apologizing is actually a trend that recurs every 4 years or so. When they botched a firmware update in 2021 that bricked my system (and many others, who were all screaming bloody murder on the forums, to no avail) for over 3 months, I threw in the towel and eBay'ed the entire system. Ended up going to Bluesound and Roon for my multi-room audio needs and haven't looked back since. If you ask me, shareholders should be demanding that the board fire Patrick Spence immediately because this is not just a one-time incident (most infamously the S1->S2 migration).

 

[Connor1a]

I used to have a whole-home Sonos system. The problem I had with them is that the current fiasco that has the CEO publicly apologizing is actually a trend that recurs every 4 years or so. When they botched a firmware update in 2021 that bricked my system (and many others, who were all screaming bloody murder on the forums, to no avail) for over 3 months, I threw in the towel and eBay'ed the entire system. Ended up going to Bluesound and Roon for my multi-room audio needs and haven't looked back since. If you ask me, shareholders should be demanding that the board fire Patrick Spence immediately because this is not just a one-time incident (most infamously the S1->S2 migration).

I was caught up in the S1 —> S2 migration as well. That was a key contributor to my upgrading to the current gen Fives / Arcs. I guess I’m an example of where their strategy was successful. I upgraded my hardware through the situation vs trying to protect my system from the S2 firmware. But that wasn’t my first, or only, brush with proprietary, closed ecosystems. I’ve survived Apple, IBM, and Cisco amongst others. I was a long time tech exec… The main difference being that I was on the inside vs a consumer… I sometimes wonder if that has made me somewhat more / too forgiving… Anyway, I totally get where you’re coming from.

 

[Verig]

AT-5 is their lowest model that doesn't kind of suck so no worries there. It's ok. AT95 cart is ok with elliptical nude or better. That you have. As mentioned earlier VM500 or 700 series offers better performance but it's not a night and day affair - nothing to make your set sub par for better speakers. I certainly recommend it somewhere along the road but not critical.
For the price of AT-7 you could eye some really excellent second hand belt driven Pro-Jects and Rega P3 which are about the best most people ever buy. So... why not, but I wouldn't hurry.

You have a protractor and scale for needle weight? Setting up properly is very important part. If you ordered factory preset it may be ok or not. It mostly is but always make sure.

At the moment I use iFi Zen Phono. It was reviewed here as ok but not great. In practise it works wonderfully. Totally neutral sound (well, the review measures pretty much perfect curve so no wonder) and I don't experience any nasty click and pops even though it measures not having much overload room. I do keep my records clean so that helps of course. It is very very quiet, no noise at all and doesn't pick up any interference. It has nicely implemented powersupply. Vinyl guys roll their eyes for smps but it works great and it's immune to any expensive "psu upgrades" that plague these products. I tried it with battery power and it made zero difference.

With MM carts preamps don't make such a difference anyway. Sure there are differences but forums and reviews make them seem much larger than they really are and out of those comments I suspect many are made because of mismatch between cart/cable/pre. It's not magic and most things are compatible enough even by luck but analog things really need some attention to paid to them. I'm not talking about cable sound quality, the capacitance just needs to be close enough correct and some preamps have quite a bit of c in their input. Close enough is ok really but some combinations are just too far off the mark and you'll hear it. Then there are all sorts of hum and grounding problems. MC world is much more demanding can of worms. Let's keep that for later.

Long winded way of saying that your source is ok, just upgrade the speakers and set them up well in the room. At the moment I have a 1980 direct drive turntable with a cart that is comparable enough to AT95+better than stock needle quality. It sounds great through rest of the set which costs $4500. With analog you need to pay for a good source much much more than with digital but even there after base ok-level it's diminishing returns quite fast.

 

[mike70]

second hand? ... any technics quartz locked.
you got a hell of turntable at a very cheap price tag (please, thanks to "audiophile" marketing ... thanks soooo much )

 

[Connor1a]

Hi

We try as much as we can to stay objective here at ASR.
Let me address a few points that I read in @Connor1a Original Post ("OP" henceforth). This , I am quoting you:


And you were told wrong:
Please, read this review of the SONOS 5.. Click Here. Very positive with a golfing Panther. High praise, indeed!! It may embarass, several so-called "audiophile" speakers costing much more... Yes! Several of these in the >$2000 /pair, even higher prices ...

I do question however the entire Vinyl chain... IMHO opinion and based on objective measurements, an inferior, passé technology, cumbersome, impractical .. (can I go on? ) ... There is so much music available online and on digital, but you choose Vinyl , so ...

You can make your SONOS listening experience much better by using SONOS "TRUEPLAY" App. Please ask people here at ASR, they will guide though using this app for , really good results. I have obtained very good results from my SONOS Beam and ERA 300.

Take your time with TRUEPLAY, you will be rewarded.

Peace.

I wont pretend to have understood half of what I read (though I’m starting to understand more), but I think I picked up the gist of the review. I’m pleasantly surprised. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Connor1a]

0.2% is amazingly bad for a turntable regardless of drive type. So much so that I'd be inclined to think it may be a typo, and they meant 0.02%. I'd reach out to AT on that one.

I’ve gone back out there and checked, the answer is: “0.2% wow and flutter (wRMS, 33RPM, 3kHz)”.

However, I picked this up from the Fluance blog “To an extent, all turntable decks have wow and flutter—even if they’re new. Wow and flutter can be slight, too, and a lot of listeners can’t “pick up” on wow or flutter ranges up to .25 percent. Under this percentage, the sound distortion simply can’t be picked up by most.”

Am I misunderstanding? Though later in the blog they speak about the fact that wow / flutter degrade over time so that a TT with a higher initial wow / flutter spec will likely require a service visit sooner than one with a lower initial spec. That makes sense to me.

PS - The RT85 wow / flutter spec is 0.07%. That’s clearly blowing the doors off the AT-LP5X!

 

[JP]

I’ve gone back out there and checked, the answer is: “0.2% wow and flutter (wRMS, 33RPM, 3kHz)”.

However, I picked this up from the Fluance blog “To an extent, all turntable decks have wow and flutter—even if they’re new. Wow and flutter can be slight, too, and a lot of listeners can’t “pick up” on wow or flutter ranges up to .25 percent. Under this percentage, the sound distortion simply can’t be picked up by most.”

Am I misunderstanding? Though later in the blog they speak about the fact that wow / flutter degrade over time so that a TT with a higher initial wow / flutter spec will likely require a service visit sooner than one with a lower initial spec. That makes sense to me.

PS - The RT85 wow / flutter spec is 0.07%. That’s clearly blowing the doors off the AT-LP5X!

And I'd consider 0.07% to be poor in comparison to an average DD. NAB considered the threshold of audibility to be 0.1% as an established threshold in the 60s. I think 0.2% would be audible. Perhaps not with rock or pop, but on sustained notes such as piano.

As a quick visual, below is a polar plot from an SL-1200GAE using a test record, along with a plot of a 0.1% NAB test signal at the same scale.

 

[Verig]

second hand? ... any technics quartz locked.
you got a hell of turntable at a very cheap price tag (please, thanks to "audiophile" marketing ... thanks soooo much )

Technics haven't been cheap for a while now.

 

[Connor1a]

And I'd consider 0.07% to be poor in comparison to an average DD. NAB considered the threshold of audibility to be 0.1% as an established threshold in the 60s. I think 0.2% would be audible. Perhaps not with rock or pop, but on sustained notes such as piano.

As a quick visual, below is a polar plot from an SL-1200GAE using a test record, along with a plot of a 0.1% NAB test signal at the same scale.

View attachment 383629
View attachment 383628

second hand? ... any technics quartz locked.
you got a hell of turntable at a very cheap price tag (please, thanks to "audiophile" marketing ... thanks soooo much )

Sorry, do you mean that I’d be better off looking for a “vintage” Technics TT? I’ve honestly looked at Craig’s List quite a few times. There been zero available near me with the exception of one local web-shop with outrageous prices (good on ‘em though, they were clearly riding the vinyl wave). They did have a tasty vintage Marantz amp through. My limiti

 

[Connor1a]

And I'd consider 0.07% to be poor in comparison to an average DD. NAB considered the threshold of audibility to be 0.1% as an established threshold in the 60s. I think 0.2% would be audible. Perhaps not with rock or pop, but on sustained notes such as piano.

As a quick visual, below is a polar plot from an SL-1200GAE using a test record, along with a plot of a 0.1% NAB test signal at the same scale.

View attachment 383629
View attachment 383628

PS - I came across something unexpected (at least for me). I’ve been led to believe the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO was one of the higher performing “audiophile” TTs out there. However, their wow / flutter performance is pretty underwhelming. From their description on Amazon:

Wow & flutter

33: +/-0.19%; 45: +/-0.17%

In other words, their performance matches the AT-LP5X. No? I mean, round up the 0.19% = 0.2%….. The EVO is BD vs the LP5X being DD so there’s that of course… Anyway.

 

[ban25]

PS - I came across something unexpected (at least for me). I’ve been led to believe the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO was one of the higher performing “audiophile” TTs out there. However, their wow / flutter performance is pretty underwhelming. From their description on Amazon:

Wow & flutter

33: +/-0.19%; 45: +/-0.17%

In other words, their performance matches the AT-LP5X. No? I mean, round up the 0.19% = 0.2%….. The EVO is BD vs the LP5X being DD so there’s that of course… Anyway.

The Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO is cheap trash. I know because I own one. Speed stability is so poor it is unlistenable next to my Technics SL1200MK7.

 

[Connor1a]

The Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO is cheap trash. I know because I own one. Speed stability is so poor it is unlistenable next to my Technics SL1200MK7.

The EVO has a near cult like following it seems. I’d love to pick up a Technics, but I just don’t have that money. Have you had a chance to look at the Fluance RT85? It gets great reviews. It’s a BD though. Otherwise, to be completely honest, if I want DD, it feels like my AT-LP5X and I are meant to be together. The RT85 could replace the LP5X, perhaps it should, I could reuse my VM95 carts (though the stock Ortofon cart seems to be a well reviewed piece of kit)… Yeah… Within my price range, and sticking to a requirement where I can reuse my VM95C, VM95EN and VM95SH carts, the options skinny down…

 

[JP]

Sorry, do you mean that I’d be better off looking for a “vintage” Technics TT? I’ve honestly looked at Craig’s List quite a few times. There been zero available near me with the exception of one local web-shop with outrageous prices (good on ‘em though, they were clearly riding the vinyl wave). They did have a tasty vintage Marantz amp through. My limiti

I'm wasn't making a recommendation. Buying vintage comes with a number of factors one should consider, such as repairability and refurbishment cost. I grabbed an SL-1300MK2 for $300 a few months ago off eBay for giggles. Auto functions are broken but that's just a 3D printed part I can put in myself. Others don't have the luxury of doing their own work.

As you own the AT, do you notice any wow? If not, perhaps live with it for a spell to learn and decide what you want to do down the road. Small incremental steps with a learning curve can end up being quite expensive in the long run.

PS - I came across something unexpected (at least for me). I’ve been led to believe the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO was one of the higher performing “audiophile” TTs out there. However, their wow / flutter performance is pretty underwhelming. From their description on Amazon:

Plenty of disconnect from reality out there.

sticking to a requirement where I can reuse my VM95C, VM95EN and VM95SH carts, the options skinny down…

I don't understand this one. Those are of standard headshell geometry that'd work on pretty much any offset arm with an SME connector of medium-ish (ideally) effective mass. You may need to re-align if the pivot to spindle distance is different, but the carts and headshell will work fine.

Personally, if the hours are low I'd sell the 95SH while I could get the most out of it and get a 95ML. Better for cheaper.

 

[Connor1a]

Personally, if the hours are low I'd sell the 95SH while I could get the most out of it and get a 95ML. Better for cheap

I have the option to return the VM95SH. You prefer the microlinear?

I don't understand this one. Those are of standard headshell geometry that'd work on pretty much any offset arm with an SME connector of medium-ish (ideally) effective mass. You may need to re-align if the pivot to spindle distance is different, but the carts and headshell will work fine.

This is my misunderstanding the situation and I am learning. I spoke with one of the pre-sales guys at Fluance. He confirmed that while I’d need a different headshell, I should be able to take the carts themselves and move them over to the RT85 (one of the TT I’ve been looking at). However, while I have a protractor and scale, the protractor instructions might as well be written in Swahili. I need to find a good video tutorial.

As you own the AT, do you notice any wow? If not, perhaps live with it for a spell to learn and decide what you want to do down the road. Small incremental steps with a learning curve can end up being quite expensive in the long run.

The thing with the LP5X now… I can’t tell you that I have any complaints. I haven’t really noticed concerns with wow or flutter though my inexperience plays into that as do my music interests. Unfortunately, I’ve almost convinced myself that the deck is not money well spent (I’ve been flamed in various forums for buying an AT - not here!). I can keep it for another +/- 2 weeks before I need to return it so I’m listening to it regularly. The alternative I’ve kind of locked onto is the Fluance RT85 (BD). It has better specs + potentially better build quality. Both list for 499$, but the LP5X (DD) includes a preamp and a USB connection. So not exactly apples to apples. I may well just pick up the Fluance if for no other reason than to try at least one other option before locking in on my forever (for now - grin) TT. Seriously though, I do plan to keep the TT for several years at least so I’d like to make a decision here that I’ll be comfortable with for the foreseeable future. My other todo for now is to lock in a preamp. The Fluance preamp doesn’t appear to compare well with either the U-Turn Pluto 2 or the Schiit Mani 2 (the two preamps I’m now staring at). Then I’ll be done for this stage and I’ll pop up again once I’m ready to look at an analog amp + a pair of speakers (I’m already looking at the Sonos Amp + a pair of KEF Q350s, but that’ll probably be next year). I’d like to think there’s a method to my madness… Perhaps not….

 

[JP]

I have the option to return the VM95SH. You prefer the microlinear?

ML is the superior profile. The minor radius won't change appreciably during the life of the stylus, so performance will be consistent. The minor radius of a Shibata will increase with wear meaning constant degradation, though that'll manifest most of inner grooves until near the end. In addition, the ML will last 2x to 3x longer than the Shibata.

AT always marketed ML as the top-dog until the VM series came out, and suddenly Shibata and their line contact were pushed to the top. Take look at Orbray's retail webshop - Shibata are $10 cheaper than ML.

Also consider that the VM95 body is the same for all of them with the exception with where they're made - China for the C, and Japan for the others. To that end could just swap styli between bodies.

This is my misunderstanding the situation and I am learning. I spoke with one of the pre-sales guys at Fluance. He confirmed that while I’d need a different headshell, I should be able to take the carts themselves and move them over to the RT85 (one of the TT I’ve been looking at). However, while I have a protractor and scale, the protractor instructions might as well be written in Swahili. I need to find a good video tutorial.

I don't see a reason why you'd need a different headshell, unless the Fluance are very light and the arm doesn't have enough counterweight to balance something more of typical weight. I very much doubt that's the case.

The thing with the LP5X now… I can’t tell you that I have any complaints. I haven’t really noticed concerns with wow or flutter though my inexperience plays into that as do my music interests. Unfortunately, I’ve almost convinced myself that the deck is not money well spent (I’ve been flamed in various forums for buying an AT - not here!). I can keep it for another +/- 2 weeks before I need to return it so I’m listening to it regularly. The alternative I’ve kind of locked onto is the Fluance RT85 (BD). It has better specs + potentially better build quality. Both list for 499$, but the LP5X (DD) includes a preamp and a USB connection. So not exactly apples to apples. I may well just pick up the Fluance if for no other reason than to try at least one other option before locking in on my forever (for now - grin) TT. Seriously though, I do plan to keep the TT for several years at least so I’d like to make a decision here that I’ll be comfortable with for the foreseeable future. My other todo for now is to lock in a preamp. The Fluance preamp doesn’t appear to compare well with either the U-Turn Pluto 2 or the Schiit Mani 2 (the two preamps I’m now staring at). Then I’ll be done for this stage and I’ll pop up again once I’m ready to look at an analog amp + a pair of speakers (I’m already looking at the Sonos Amp + a pair of KEF Q350s, but that’ll probably be next year). I’d like to think there’s a method to my madness… Perhaps not….

If you ask what you should get on an audio forum, the majority of respondents will tell you to get what they have, or what they wish they had.

I've no experience with any of the AT 'tables. Were I you, I'd define my objectives and then look at reports of real performance issues, reliability issues, flexibility, etc. in addition to the criteria to meet those objectives. As you're new to this I'd consider something like the AT120 that's even cheaper, as I can all but guarantee if you stick with vinyl in any meaningful way, it's very unlikely you'll want to stick with a new 'table in the sub-$500 range. They're all based off the same design, so performance isn't going to vary much. Years ago the earlier models had anti-skate issues, so I'd make sure those types of deficiencies have been resolved.

The number one thing is to get something that has an arm that's competent enough to host the cartridges you're interest in, and that won't damage your records.

 

[JP]

I don't see a reason why you'd need a different headshell, unless the Fluance are very light and the arm doesn't have enough counterweight to balance something more of typical weight. I very much doubt that's the case.

Fluance spec their headshell at 9g and AT theirs at 9.4g.

 

[kemmler3D]

I’ve been told repeatedly that the weakest link in my chain is my Sonos speakers.

Sonos speakers aren't the absolute best you can get for the money, but they are also far from the worst. There is a lot of prejudice against Sonos because they're seen as too mainstream, too much DSP, whatever.

The fact of the matter is the measurements are pretty good, and they actually sound pretty good if you pay attention and don't just make assumptions. They're not perfect but they're not trash by any means.

Sonically, my old B&Ws (with the right amp) would blow the doors off my Sonos Fives,

Probably yes in terms of output and maybe distortion, but in terms of FR the Sonos stuff might actually beat the B&Ws depending on when they were made.

 

[mike70]

Technics is always cheap considering their competition ... I mean, tell me one tt really better than a technics in the same price tag.
Vintage or brand new.

I saw units like my vintage sl-q2 at 150 USD in ebay, working and in good shape. That's a steal ... no Fluance is better than the Q2.

I respect every opinion, obviously, but is what I think after using vinyl since early 70s

 

[Verig]

I have the option to return the VM95SH. You prefer the microlinear?

ML will last longer. Shibatas sound nice though. You can just try it. But considering the price returning/selling it might be a good idea.

I spoke with one of the pre-sales guys at Fluance. He confirmed that while I’d need a different headshell,

No you don't. Pretty much all new(ish) decks have medium mass arms without any funny business, the standard headshells supplied with AT carts work just fine. If you want to go tweaking AT makes really nice adjustable aluminium HS for about $70 but that's an overkill for now.

I should be able to take the carts themselves and move them over to the RT85 (one of the TT I’ve been looking at). However, while I have a protractor and scale, the protractor instructions might as well be written in Swahili. I need to find a good video tutorial.

This is very important to nail.

The thing with the LP5X now… I can’t tell you that I have any complaints. I haven’t really noticed concerns with wow or flutter though my inexperience plays into that as do my music interests. Unfortunately, I’ve almost convinced myself that the deck is not money well spent (I’ve been flamed in various forums for buying an AT - not here!).

Flames are mostly about AT120 and lower models. LP5 (or 7) is not very commonly seen.
I have an old direct drive from the turn of the 70/80's with wow/flutter 0,03% and rumble -70dB. Based on at the time normal Marantz design, better than LP5 or most new cheaper decks. But still I wouldn't worry much. As seen in very popular Pro-ject model it's common to have lower specs and users are still happy.

I can keep it for another +/- 2 weeks before I need to return it so I’m listening to it regularly. The alternative I’ve kind of locked onto is the Fluance RT85 (BD). It has better specs + potentially better build quality. Both list for 499$, but the LP5X (DD) includes a preamp and a USB connection. So not exactly apples to apples. I may well just pick up the Fluance if for no other reason than to try at least one other option before locking in on my forever (for now - grin) TT.

I haven't heard Fluance but it seems to measure well. So why not. At least then you know how much of the specs you can hear.
I'd pick Fluance just because it doesn't have usb and preamp but this is not measured knowledge, I just have very low expectations about anything inbuilt into a deck.

Seriously though, I do plan to keep the TT for several years at least so I’d like to make a decision here that I’ll be comfortable with for the foreseeable future. My other todo for now is to lock in a preamp. The Fluance preamp doesn’t appear to compare well with either the U-Turn Pluto 2 or the Schiit Mani 2 (the two preamps I’m now staring at).

I see that Fluance (at their site) sells for $499 including Ortofon 2M Blue. That's an absolute deal and very surprising considering Blue sells for $170 alone. Usually starter kits come with 2M Red which is absolutely frustrating piece of IMD and bad tracking. Blue has the same body but with upgraded needle it becomes very nice and would serve many without any serious need for an upgrade. 2M Blue is comparable to AT95 with elliptical nude needle.

Seeing the Fluance measurements and the 2M Blue deal I'd take it. You can sell the Blue for $100 if you want but it really is a very good cart and personally I'd stick with it for a while and upgrade sometime later if you feel the need. Fluance kit and Schiit preamp sounds like the way to go.

 

[Connor1a]

I see that Fluance (at their site) sells for $499 including Ortofon 2M Blue.

I'd pick Fluance just because it doesn't have usb and preamp but this is not measured knowledge, I just have very low expectations about anything inbuilt into a deck.

I’m with you. I ordered the Fluance last night. It’ll be here within the next few days. I’ve read a stack of reviews. I realize reviews can be “purchased”, but there are a few critical reviews out there as well. I really like that they’ve kept the deck fully analog. It intuitively makes a lot of sense to keep all that EMI out of the deck and away from the sensitive cartridge.

The deck actually had 2 options. One with the Ortofon 2M Blue. The other with the Nagaoka MP-110. Were I to guess, I mean with me knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, I’d guess that Fluance took the money they could have put into a phono stage and USB connection and put it into the stylus. Well, I’l restate that, I know nothing about turntables, but I’m wicked good with commercial cost cases. There’s a 110$ price difference between the Ortofon 2M Blue and AT-VM95E (stock LP5X stylus) styli. That’s an easy equation to solve for. On a price only basis, the Ortofon actually compares to the AT-VM95ML (slightly below the AT-VM95SH). So I’m interested to see how the build quality differs. Particularly the plastic plinth of the LP5X vs the MDF of the RT85. I’ve no idea how to do an A/B sound comparison, but I’ll attempt it and will report back (on a purely qualitative basis - a purely unsophisticated qualitative basis).

Thanks greatly for your reply.