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Unbiased Perspective Please - AT-LP5X + AT-VM95EN + AT-PEQ30 to Sonos Fives w/ Sub

Connor1a

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Jul 24, 2024
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Hi

I’ve been lurking for a while before posting. Given what I’ve read, I’m hoping for a bit more help than I’ve received in several other forums. I’m open to any and all opinions, but there are those who get a bit passionate and … well you get where I’m going. You guys seem like a good crowd.

I currently have an Audio Technica chain going into a pair of Sonos Fives w/ a Gen2 Sub. I’ve been schooled several times that 1) AT isn’t worth the price of even entry level turntables and 2) Sonos isn’t capable of decent sound (I didn’t say audiophile).

Here’s what I have going on. I have a new AT-LP5X with an AT-VM95E going into an AT-PEQ30 which then connects to the Line-In port of a Sonos Five stereo pair. To my ears, the sound is OK. It doesn’t knock my socks off by any means, but then I went to a lot of punk concerts as a kid. I’m lucky to still be able to hear from both ears.

I have a couple of weeks before I need to make a final decision on the gear that I have. I can return it if I please. My limiting factors are that I have three AT-HS6 headshells plus an AT-VM95C, an AT-VM95EN and an AT-VM95SH that are sunk investments. Were I to look at a different deck, I’d want to take those with me.

I actually bought the AT-PEQ30 before I bought the AT-LP5X. It’s a long story. As I’m trying to decide on the deck, I’m also looking at the preamp. I have a Fosi X2 with upgraded tubes that I’ve been trying. I also have a U-Turn Pluto 2 that I’ve been playing with. My intent is to order a Schiit Mani 2 as the final trial piece. To my ears right now, the Fosi is holding its own. The U-Turn probably beats it with the PEQ30 bringing up the rear. However, its hard to hear the differences which brings up my next point.

I’ve been told repeatedly that the weakest link in my chain is my Sonos speakers. Bluntly, I was told to not waste my money on either a better deck, styli or preamp as the Sonos speakers would be unable to present the finer details / sounds the upgrades should deliver. In short, Sonos sucks… A discussion for another time, but Sonos is in my future for the foreseeable future. It is what it is. I’d eventually like to invest in a fully analog chain, but that’s not going to happen this year.

So my question(s) are these. 1) Is Sonos truly my weakest link? I realize the closed ecosystem has its weaknesses / frustrations (not unlike Apple), but to my ears, I don’t think they’re horrible. 2) Is the AT-LP5X at the top end of what the Sonos speakers are likely able to present? Would there be no end “ear” value in a Pro-Ject Carbon EVO for example were I to make that swap happen. 3) With respect to the preamps, any suggestions? I’ve looked for reviews of the AT-PEQ30. There aren’t very many out there; few are critical. Does anyone here have experience with them paired with or without an AT deck? More broadly, I can afford a couple hundred $$$ (I’m in the US) for a preamp if my Sonos system can benefit from the investment. If not, for <100$, both the Fosi X2 and U-Turn are better than the stock preamp…

I really appreciate any constructive feedback. I’m not looking to throw money away, but by the same token, I’m really enjoying having vinyl back in my music again. The pomp and circumstance. It’s great. Once I nail down the deck / preamp, I probably wont touch it for a couple of years…. Thanks so much!
 
Site the deck well away from the speakers and room corners, remove the lid when playing and see how you go... The VM500 series has posher innards but I have to admit I've not compared say, a 95EN with a 530, or a 95ML (which I rather like) to a 540. Apart from that, enjoy the bloody thing and grin from ear to ear at those who insist on spending many thousands on their vinyl playing confections :D

I can't speak for the RIAA stage, but I suspect a Schiit Mani 2 phono stage could be tried as a universal alternative but you'd need something with variable output and here I'm getting seriously unstuck!

In a *vinyl* system, the speakers are always the last thing to look at as if you lose it further back, no matter how good the speakers are, you'll never get it back no matter how good the speakers are. The thing is *today,* good basic quality vinyl can be got for very little money if you work with the structural compromises (light weight, potentially resonant structure and maybe basic 'feet' for example).

So, if you like the basic sound from the Sonos, I'd hang fire as long as you have something to adjust the volume and maybe save some more? I'm still stuck in the old-school system approach, although I have heard various 'streaming' little speakers which are surprisingly entertaining to hear music through.

I hope the above helps. As above, save a bit more and see what's around. I'm hoping someone here can also help you.
 
Speakers and rooms are usually the limiting factor in music playback. I've heard a Sonos Five and it was OK. Many of the active and passive monitors (with a power amplifier) positively reviewed here would be better, but won't have all the integration benefits you get with the Sonos system.

Your turntable should be fine. I don't think you need to spend more.

Sit back and enjoy.
 
You actually have a pretty decent direct-drive turntable in the AT-LP5X which will outperform many audiophile brands, as well as the cheaper belt-drive units you see from Pro-Ject and Rega. I would keep it. Phono pre-amps are all pretty similar so long as they aren't broken (RIAA equalization is quite trivial), so I think the Schitt Mani 2 would be your best bet.

Speakers. The Sonos Fives are your weak link, IMO, but perhaps not for the reasons you might think. The first issue is that you have to run an 1/8' stereo cable from the pre-amp to one of the Fives. This makes it hard to position the table any significant distance away from the speakers without introducing issues with noise, ground loops, or aesthetic problems. The second issue is more about personal taste, but I hate the fact that the Sonos speakers have a 2 second buffer in their input/DAC stage. This means that you don't hear the music until at least 2 seconds after you drop the needle. At that point, why not just stream digitally?

I'd recommend replacing the fives with a decent set of passive bookshelf speakers and a small integrated amp, perhaps one with a built-in phono stage (meaning you won't need the Mani).
 
Speakers and rooms are usually the limiting factor in music playback. I've heard a Sonos Five and it was OK. Many of the active and passive monitors (with a power amplifier) positively reviewed here would be better, but won't have all the integration benefits you get with the Sonos system.

Your turntable should be fine. I don't think you need to spend more.

Sit back and enjoy.
Thank you for the post. And you nailed the Sonos point. I have 2 Arcs w Subs and surrounds, a Beam, the pair of Fives w a Sub, and multiple Ones distributed throughout my place. The app UI / sound aren’t perfect, but they all work brilliantly for parties where I have different zones / playlists going etc. Most of my music is streamed via Qobuz. I don’t have a dedicated listening space (yet) so a fully analog chain just doesn’t make sense (yet - I’m working on that). Hence my Sonos is here to stay for the foreseeable future. TBH, I’m
You actually have a pretty decent direct-drive turntable in the AT-LP5X which will outperform many audiophile brands, as well as the cheaper belt-drive units you see from Pro-Ject and Rega. I would keep it. Phono pre-amps are all pretty similar so long as they aren't broken (RIAA equalization is quite trivial), so I think the Schitt Mani 2 would be your best bet.

Speakers. The Sonos Fives are your weak link, IMO, but perhaps not for the reasons you might think. The first issue is that you have to run an 1/8' stereo cable from the pre-amp to one of the Fives. This makes it hard to position the table any significant distance away from the speakers without introducing issues with noise, ground loops, or aesthetic problems. The second issue is more about personal taste, but I hate the fact that the Sonos speakers have a 2 second buffer in their input/DAC stage. This means that you don't hear the music until at least 2 seconds after you drop the needle. At that point, why not just stream digitally?

I'd recommend replacing the fives with a decent set of passive bookshelf speakers and a small integrated amp, perhaps one with a built-in phono stage (meaning you won't need the Mani).
Hey - Thank you for the post.

I know exactly what you’re talking about concerning the Sonos delay. It drove me nuts as well. If you have reason to deal with it in the future, it’s straightforward to fix. Under the Line-In options for the speaker being used for the connection, there’s an “Audio Delay” configuration item. The default value is 2,000 ms (the 2 seconds you referred to), but you can drop it as low as 75 ms. I have mine set at 113 ms and it sounds almost like an immediate response when I drop the stylus. The delay is there to compensate for potential network delays when streaming to other Sonos speakers. In my case, I have everything hardwired so could probably run stably at 75 ms, but I’ve kept a small delay in there just in case.

On the turntable, do you recommend a direct drive over a belt drive? I’m going to obsess over this a bit more and then I’ll move on. I do understand your point concerning a set of entry level analog speakers / amp. Do you have any thoughts on the Schiit gear in general? I was looking at the Gjallarhorn amp as a possible future buy (like next year). Speaker options are just ridiculous. That’s why I want to get this deck right so that it’ll “grow up” when I start seriously looking at an analog setup. If that makes sense. I like the Schiit look / approach to their design. Small, but packs a wallop. But that doesn’t mean much if they don’t perform. Anyway, thanks again.
 
On the turntable, do you recommend a direct drive over a belt drive? I’m going to obsess over this a bit more and then I’ll move on.
In the 1980s when turntables like the Linn Sondek started becoming famous, there was quite a lot of negativity about direct drive. I remember reading a review about DD turntables having a "hole in the middle of the sound", but I really don't know what they meant.

Budget DD turntables at that time could have noise problems and "cogging" artefacts, but I would be surprised if this was a problem now. Belt drive, in theory, allows for better isolation from the motor, but at the price of wow and flutter and aging of the belt.
 
On the turntable, do you recommend a direct drive over a belt drive? I’m going to obsess over this a bit more and then I’ll move on. I do understand your point concerning a set of entry level analog speakers / amp. Do you have any thoughts on the Schiit gear in general? I was looking at the Gjallarhorn amp as a possible future buy (like next year). Speaker options are just ridiculous. That’s why I want to get this deck right so that it’ll “grow up” when I start seriously looking at an analog setup. If that makes sense. I like the Schiit look / approach to their design. Small, but packs a wallop. But that doesn’t mean much if they don’t perform. Anyway, thanks again.
Direct drive is far superior and even an entry level DD table will outperform any belt-drive unit on the market regardless of price in wow & flutter, which you can actually hear. My Technics SL-1200 measures 10x better than my belt-drive Pro-Ject, and I can't even listen to classical LPs with their sustained notes given all the speed/pitch variability in the Pro-Ject table. I'd keep your current table, it's better than my Pro-Ject, which probably cost me 3X the price.

In terms of speakers, there are plenty of entry level options. The KEF Q150s retail for $350, for instance. The only problem with the Gjallarhorn is it only puts out 15W into 4 Ohms. Is that enough? Yes, technically, but it won't play particularly loud on low sensitivity speakers (like the Q150s, ironically). It would also depend on how much bass energy is in the music you listen to, since that's what takes the most power. For example, the most I tend to push listening to music at very loud levels is about 30W per channel. Easy listening is probably closer to 3W. If your heart is on the Gjallarhorn, I would try with one of them and if it's not getting loud enough, buy a 2nd one and run them as monoblocks. If that's still not enough, you could spring for the Vidar (200WPC @ 4Ohms).

A Mani, Gjallarhorn, and a pair of Q150s will run you $800 plus tax and shipping. Or $1100 if you need a bit more juice. Not too shabby for a full analog stack.
 
A Mani, Gjallarhorn, and a pair of Q150s will run you $800 plus tax and shipping. Or $1100 if you need a bit more juice. Not too shabby for a full analog stack.
I'll add that if you wanted to retain the multi-room streaming capability of your Sonos system for this zone, you could add a Sonos Port (with some type of RCA switcher) or skip the Gjallarhorn and use a Sonos Amp (also with a switcher).
 
So it’s embarrassing how little I know about these things, but I read a lot so am trying to learn. I’m trying things on the fly as I read posts. Please bear with me. For example, I’ve taken to heart the fact that physically moving my speakers makes a huge difference in sound. I’ve DESTROYED my apartment so that I could rearrange my Sonos Fives into a better listening position. The difference in soundstage has been significant. The sub is a completely different animal (positively) though my downstairs neighbors aren’t thrilled. Meh, I’m moving soon though I do need to put my apartment back together… Anyway…

I’ve been looking at all the key specs for turntables until my eyeballs have bled. Wow, flutter, motor noise, THD, SNR, turntable placement as far as possible from the speakers.

I’ll keep this between the LP5X and the LP7 though the comparison goes the same with the Pro-Ject line or Rega or Dual or any of the other brands that have been recommended to me.

The LP5X’s key stats are wow and flutter < 0.2% WRMS, SNR > 50 dB.

The LP7’s key stats are wow and flutter 0.08% WRMS, SNR > 60 dB.

To be honest, I don’t know if my ears would be able to hear the difference between a wow/flutter of 0.2% and 0.1%, but the SNR, from what I’ve read, is large enough to hear. Perhaps not enough to hear on Sonos speakers, but were I to go to something like KEF in the future, would that be something that I’d notice and ultimately regret? Ie, I’d save 300$ on the deck today, but spend more in regret dollars later. I’m not discounting your recommendation. Just clarifying as once I pull the trigger, I don’t want to look back.

With respect to the Gjallarhorn / Mani decision, I have zero bias for Schiit kit. I pulled the Gjallarhorn up when I was looking at the Mani 2 and thought, “Gee, they match”. That was about the depth of my consideration. KEF, on the other hand, I have stared at. Crutchfield has a pair of Q350s (walnut) at 499$ with the Q150s at 350$. I’ve not really started any sort of investigation into an amp. I’m aware of the Sonos Amp. I don’t know good it is as an amp, but I do happen to have a 30% coupon for any Sonos equipment I may want (it’s an upgrade coupon I have from a set of old Sonos Fives I had). So the Amp would only run me 490$. I definitely don’t have this money right now, but the Q350s + the Sonos Amp would run me under 1k$ + tax + cables (which aren’t cheap!)… I think that’s a lot of gear for ~1k$. I could probably swing that next year if I eat noting but soup until then and just give my kids cards and a big hug for Christmas (they’re old enough to know that while Santa is real, he has a budget)… But again, that’s me knowing absolutely nothing about the Sonos Amp other than that it has the Sonos logo and can spin analog speakers.

So aspiration-ally, that’d be AT-LP5X (or LP7 depending on your thoughts above) —> AT-VM95EN/SH (I have both styli so that’s a done deal) —> U-Turn / Schiit / AT-PEQ30 preamp (need to decide on that - The U-Turn is growing on me vs the PEQ, but honestly, its hard for me to really hear a difference - they’re different, but I’m having a tough time with the A/B switching as I need to re-cable / re-cue each time) —> Amp (Sonos is a contender or I’m academically intrigued by the dual mono block idea) —> Kef Q350s. That’s almost looking like a plan……

You’ve been super helpful. Thanks so much.
 
In the 1980s when turntables like the Linn Sondek started becoming famous, there was quite a lot of negativity about direct drive. I remember reading a review about DD turntables having a "hole in the middle of the sound", but I really don't know what they meant.

Budget DD turntables at that time could have noise problems and "cogging" artefacts, but I would be surprised if this was a problem now. Belt drive, in theory, allows for better isolation from the motor, but at the price of wow and flutter and aging of the belt.
Hi. Thank you for the reply.

(I read your tag line. Infrastructure / Corp Sec / Etc. I’m a 30 year veteran of the infrastructure space myself. I ran mega deals for a certain very large IT company w/ a three letter acronym name I’m sure you know. We probably know the same handshakes lol…)

Anyway, here’s what’s confusing me. I’ve read several things that line up with what you’re saying, but when I look at the specs for the LP5X (DD) vs the LP7 (BD), the LP7’s wow/flutter + SNR out performs the LP5X, but I don’t know enough to understand by how much. The wow/flutter on the LP5X is <0.2% vs 0.08% on the LP7. The SNR on the LP5X is >50 dB vs >60db on the LP7. So from a strict numbers perspective, the LP7 is outperforming the LP5X. However, are those differences something that I’d hear? I don’t know. Are those performance differences worth 400$? Again, I don’t know. That’s what I’m trying to understand. Factor in the styli being used and the comparison becomes even less clear to me. I’m using the AT-VM95EN as my everyday driver for rock and vocals and then the AT-VM95SH when I’m in a jazzy kind of mood. Both of those styli outperform the AT-VM95E stock styli that comes with the LP5X and the AT-VM520EB that comes on the LP7. They wont affect wow/flutter (at least I don’t think they do), but I think they’ll affect SND and THD...(?) Or am I off in the weeds somewhere.

I really appreciate your response. Thanks mucho.
 
Hi

We try as much as we can to stay objective here at ASR.
Let me address a few points that I read in @Connor1a Original Post ("OP" henceforth). This , I am quoting you:
I’ve been told repeatedly that the weakest link in my chain is my Sonos speakers.

And you were told wrong:
Please, read this review of the SONOS 5.. Click Here. Very positive with a golfing Panther. High praise, indeed!! It may embarass, several so-called "audiophile" speakers costing much more... Yes! Several of these in the >$2000 /pair, even higher prices ...

I do question however the entire Vinyl chain... IMHO opinion and based on objective measurements, an inferior, passé technology, cumbersome, impractical .. (can I go on? :D) ... There is so much music available online and on digital, but you choose Vinyl , so ...

You can make your SONOS listening experience much better by using SONOS "TRUEPLAY" App. Please ask people here at ASR, they will guide though using this app for , really good results. I have obtained very good results from my SONOS Beam and ERA 300.

Take your time with TRUEPLAY, you will be rewarded.

Peace.
 
So it’s embarrassing how little I know about these things, but I read a lot so am trying to learn. I’m trying things on the fly as I read posts. Please bear with me. For example, I’ve taken to heart the fact that physically moving my speakers makes a huge difference in sound. I’ve DESTROYED my apartment so that I could rearrange my Sonos Fives into a better listening position. The difference in soundstage has been significant. The sub is a completely different animal (positively) though my downstairs neighbors aren’t thrilled. Meh, I’m moving soon though I do need to put my apartment back together… Anyway…

I’ve been looking at all the key specs for turntables until my eyeballs have bled. Wow, flutter, motor noise, THD, SNR, turntable placement as far as possible from the speakers.

I’ll keep this between the LP5X and the LP7 though the comparison goes the same with the Pro-Ject line or Rega or Dual or any of the other brands that have been recommended to me.

The LP5X’s key stats are wow and flutter < 0.2% WRMS, SNR > 50 dB.

The LP7’s key stats are wow and flutter 0.08% WRMS, SNR > 60 dB.

To be honest, I don’t know if my ears would be able to hear the difference between a wow/flutter of 0.2% and 0.1%, but the SNR, from what I’ve read, is large enough to hear. Perhaps not enough to hear on Sonos speakers, but were I to go to something like KEF in the future, would that be something that I’d notice and ultimately regret? Ie, I’d save 300$ on the deck today, but spend more in regret dollars later. I’m not discounting your recommendation. Just clarifying as once I pull the trigger, I don’t want to look back.

With respect to the Gjallarhorn / Mani decision, I have zero bias for Schiit kit. I pulled the Gjallarhorn up when I was looking at the Mani 2 and thought, “Gee, they match”. That was about the depth of my consideration. KEF, on the other hand, I have stared at. Crutchfield has a pair of Q350s (walnut) at 499$ with the Q150s at 350$. I’ve not really started any sort of investigation into an amp. I’m aware of the Sonos Amp. I don’t know good it is as an amp, but I do happen to have a 30% coupon for any Sonos equipment I may want (it’s an upgrade coupon I have from a set of old Sonos Fives I had). So the Amp would only run me 490$. I definitely don’t have this money right now, but the Q350s + the Sonos Amp would run me under 1k$ + tax + cables (which aren’t cheap!)… I think that’s a lot of gear for ~1k$. I could probably swing that next year if I eat noting but soup until then and just give my kids cards and a big hug for Christmas (they’re old enough to know that while Santa is real, he has a budget)… But again, that’s me knowing absolutely nothing about the Sonos Amp other than that it has the Sonos logo and can spin analog speakers.

So aspiration-ally, that’d be AT-LP5X (or LP7 depending on your thoughts above) —> AT-VM95EN/SH (I have both styli so that’s a done deal) —> U-Turn / Schiit / AT-PEQ30 preamp (need to decide on that - The U-Turn is growing on me vs the PEQ, but honestly, its hard for me to really hear a difference - they’re different, but I’m having a tough time with the A/B switching as I need to re-cable / re-cue each time) —> Amp (Sonos is a contender or I’m academically intrigued by the dual mono block idea) —> Kef Q350s. That’s almost looking like a plan……

You’ve been super helpful. Thanks so much.
I would stay with the LP5X. I'm suspicious of the specs on the LP7. Drive belts deteriorate over time, and their performance does as well. Because W+F manifests as pitch variation, you can definitely hear it on a poor performing table, especially on sustained notes. It's a much more noticeable issue than high-noise/low-SINAD in my opinion, where you might only notice some hissing during quiet passages with high gain.

The Sonos Amp is well regarded and offers solid power in its price class. I think that choice just comes down to whether or not you want the extra built-in streaming functionality -- if so, it's a no brainer. On the other hand, if you want to tweak and play with the gear (half of the fun of this hobby TBH), then the monoblocks will do the job and have fun doing it!

The Q350s in walnut look fantastic -- that's the best finish IMO.

Don't go crazy on cables (audiophile jewelry), anything will get the job done, including lamp cord. Blue Jeans Cable offers well built speaker cables for reasonable prices:


Make sure to add a ground cable between the LP5X and the PEQ30.

Have fun!
 
Hi

We try as much as we can to stay objective here at ASR.
Let me address a few points that I read in @Connor1a Original Post ("OP" henceforth). This , I am quoting you:


And you were told wrong:
Please, read this review of the SONOS 5.. Click Here. Very positive with a golfing Panther. High praise, indeed!! It may embarass, several so-called "audiophile" speakers costing much more... Yes! Several of these in the >$2000 /pair, even higher prices ...

I do question however the entire Vinyl chain... IMHO opinion and based on objective measurements, an inferior, passé technology, cumbersome, impractical .. (can I go on? :D) ... There is so much music available online and on digital, but you choose Vinyl , so ...

You can make your SONOS listening experience much better by using SONOS "TRUEPLAY" App. Please ask people here at ASR, they will guide though using this app for , really good results. I have obtained very good results from my SONOS Beam and ERA 300.

Take your time with TRUEPLAY, you will be rewarded.

Peace.
Lol….. I’m entirely all too familiar with Trueplay. Unfortunately, it’s been hit or miss with me here in my apartment. The acoustics are horrendous. All solid surfaces so sound bounces around everywhere. I don’t think Sonos knows how to deal w/ my space. That’s the biggest reason I just completely reorganized my entire living space. I moved my Fives so they now fire directly into my lounge vs coming in from the side. It’s actually been a big improvement. Personally, “to my ears”, the Fives sound ok. I’m not going to go listen to anything different for now!

Now, as to the vinyl chain vs digital, I’m a hybrid guy. I stream Qobuz for most of my music (24 bit / 48 kHz - max Sonos supports). It’s great, but I also enjoy the ceremony of playing an album; particularly when I have a guest over. Selecting an album. Dusting and then placing the stylus… The light crackling of the speakers. Its sexy. Trust me. Grin.

TYVM for your post.
 
I enjoy vinil and digital ... and both have a place for me.
When i have the time and opportunity to fully listen to an album i really like ... well, is vinyl for me.
In the day by day and more uncompromised listening, streaming.

Digital sounds better? in theory yes. In practice it totally depends on recording / mastering, so i don't bother too much with sound quality ... try to get a decent recording and it's done.

A decent turntable, a decent cartridge and a decent preamp, that's all you need ... and you have it. The difference for a better turntable, better cartridge and better preamp is minimal. If you want to walk that road, it's ok ... i have a little "better" (in theory) analog system, but my enjoyment ... is the same as before.

Regarding DD / belt drive ... there's not about the technology, it's the implementation.
"toroidal transformer is better"
"dual mono is better"
"beryllium tweeter is better"
"close to the wall is bad"
"subwoofer is not for stereo"
... stop here ...
every brand promotes what they CAN do it well as the silver bullet


British belt drive turntables detonated the DD innovation from Technics many years with bad marketing ... totally bull****.
I never listened to that "cogging" in the 80s mk2 and i do listened to bad speed sustained piano notes in Rega turntables :)

Ok, that's too much talk, my 2 cents only.
 
Anyway, here’s what’s confusing me. I’ve read several things that line up with what you’re saying, but when I look at the specs for the LP5X (DD) vs the LP7 (BD), the LP7’s wow/flutter + SNR out performs the LP5X, but I don’t know enough to understand by how much. The wow/flutter on the LP5X is <0.2% vs 0.08% on the LP7. The SNR on the LP5X is >50 dB vs >60db on the LP7. So from a strict numbers perspective, the LP7 is outperforming the LP5X. However, are those differences something that I’d hear?

0.2% is amazingly bad for a turntable regardless of drive type. So much so that I'd be inclined to think it may be a typo, and they meant 0.02%. I'd reach out to AT on that one.
 
I enjoy vinil and digital ... and both have a place for me.
When i have the time and opportunity to fully listen to an album i really like ... well, is vinyl for me.
In the day by day and more uncompromised listening, streaming.

Digital sounds better? in theory yes. In practice it totally depends on recording / mastering, so i don't bother too much with sound quality ... try to get a decent recording and it's done.

A decent turntable, a decent cartridge and a decent preamp, that's all you need ... and you have it. The difference for a better turntable, better cartridge and better preamp is minimal. If you want to walk that road, it's ok ... i have a little "better" (in theory) analog system, but my enjoyment ... is the same as before.

Regarding DD / belt drive ... there's not about the technology, it's the implementation.
"toroidal transformer is better"
"dual mono is better"
"beryllium tweeter is better"
"close to the wall is bad"
"subwoofer is not for stereo"
... stop here ...
every brand promotes what they CAN do it well as the silver bullet


British belt drive turntables detonated the DD innovation from Technics many years with bad marketing ... totally bull****.
I never listened to that "cogging" in the 80s mk2 and i do listened to bad speed sustained piano notes in Rega turntables :)

Ok, that's too much talk, my 2 cents only.
I appreciate your point on diminishing returns. Will I hear wow/flutter <0.2% WRMS vs <0.1% WRMS or SNR >50 dB vs >60 dB or RIAA +/- 0.5% dB vs +/- 0.3% dB….? I mean in all stark honesty? Probably not. I went to a lot of concerts as a kid. I’ve permanently damaged my hearing so I’m probably not going to hear those nuances on even a stellar system. My music tastes run toward old school punk, alternative rock, rock, jazz and blues. I’m not sure I’d miss those piano notes in that music selection either. Volume is what I’m missing. I need to be kind to my neighbors. My comfortable volume rattles the windows.

That said, it’s fun learning about all this fascinating technology regardless. I think I know what I’m going to do now. Unless I can get a SMOKE’N hot deal on an LP7, which might still happen, I’ll most likely stick w/ the LP5X, test the Schiit Mani 2 (which looks to be only slightly better than the U-Turn), make a choice there and I’ll be done for now. Once I’m done moving, and if I have any $$$s left over, I’ll look hard at the KEF Q350s if they’re still on sale and maybe the Sonos Amp where I have a 30% coupon. Then I’ll really be done and I can focus on growing my vinyl collection and groceries!

Thank you for your reply.
 
I appreciate your point on diminishing returns. Will I hear wow/flutter <0.2% WRMS vs <0.1% WRMS or SNR >50 dB vs >60 dB or RIAA +/- 0.5% dB vs ... I’ll look hard at the KEF Q350s if they’re
my "unbiased opinion" is the loudspeaker issue - tho I read the OP to say he likes the sound of the sonus. I've heard them sound pretty good just once & want to be fair but loudspeakers are the only thing listened to in the room.
The KEFs will change your world - far easier than this or that turntable/cart in 2024
Best of Luck
 
Anyway, here’s what’s confusing me. I’ve read several things that line up with what you’re saying, but when I look at the specs for the LP5X (DD) vs the LP7 (BD), the LP7’s wow/flutter + SNR out performs the LP5X, but I don’t know enough to understand by how much. The wow/flutter on the LP5X is <0.2% vs 0.08% on the LP7. The SNR on the LP5X is >50 dB vs >60db on the LP7. So from a strict numbers perspective, the LP7 is outperforming the LP5X. However, are those differences something that I’d hear? I don’t know. Are those performance differences worth 400$? Again, I don’t know. That’s what I’m trying to understand. Factor in the styli being used and the comparison becomes even less clear to me. I’m using the AT-VM95EN as my everyday driver for rock and vocals and then the AT-VM95SH when I’m in a jazzy kind of mood. Both of those styli outperform the AT-VM95E stock styli that comes with the LP5X and the AT-VM520EB that comes on the LP7. They wont affect wow/flutter (at least I don’t think they do), but I think they’ll affect SND and THD...(?) Or am I off in the weeds somewhere
It is confusing, isn't it?

Because I had to set up quite a lot of turntables in studios, I inevitably heard a lot of frequency sweeps and Wow and Flutter tests. Like a lot of tasks, you build up "muscle memory" (in this case in the brain) that allows you to quickly spot something not quite right. W&F is one such area that I became oversensitive in. In my experience, however, a well set-up, high quality belt drive or direct drive turntable should both be OK with even piano note decay. My turntable is belt driven with a relatively inert platter and piano sounds OK.

The reality is that quite a lot of records have the hole off-centre, and this creates really obvious Wow and Flutter effects, which are often impossible to avoid.

In terms of noise, my instinct is that isolated suspended suspension belt-driven turntables should measure better than solid, non-isolated direct drive turntables. But, in many cases, the LP noise will dominate over the turntable noise, so it probably doesn't matter. And sometimes it depends on how rigid your floors or walls are.

Just always keep in mind that LPs generally perform worse than turntables. Also, in terms of performance, the relationship between the cartridge and the preamplifier input stage probably has a bigger effect. And, digital is better.

So, why do I have a belt-drive turntable? 1) choice of arm; 2) I don't need automation; 3) the research done by the Cranfield Institute of Technology in this patent made a lot of sense to me:

 
my "unbiased opinion" is the loudspeaker issue - tho I read the OP to say he likes the sound of the sonus. I've heard them sound pretty good just once & want to be fair but loudspeakers are the only thing listened to in the room.
The KEFs will change your world - far easier than this or that turntable/cart in 2024
Best of Luck
To be honest, when I first purchased Sonos, I was more interested in a speaker “system” that I could easily distribute throughout my home than I was a high fidelity set of audiophile speakers. In fact, my wicked little secret is that I sold a set of very nice cherry B&W 603s + a CNT to fund my first set of Sonos speakers. I know, the horror. So yes, I am ok with the sound of my Sonos Fives, but I do have some appreciation for their limitations. The thing about Sonos is that once you let them into your home, them grow on you. It’s like putting 2 hamsters in the same cage and waking up one morning to find that you have 25 of the little buggers. They multiply because they’re so danged convenient and they really do sound OK vs other, similar options (active, network attached loudspeakers). Putting aside the current app / firmware fiasco, Sonos does have compelling use cases. So when I say I think the Sonos sound is good, I take all that into account as well. Sonically, my old B&Ws (with the right amp) would blow the doors off my Sonos Fives, but then I’d need a ton of gear to replicate the Sonos functionality while using analog speakers (though the options today are far richer than 10 years ago when I first bought Sonos). Anyway, that’s my story. TYVM for the post. I take your point on the KEFs and I don’t disagree. I’d love to pull the trigger right now, but I need to wait just a bit longer……..
 
The SNR on the LP5X is >50 dB vs >60db on the LP7. So from a strict numbers perspective, the LP7 is outperforming the LP5X.
They don't really tell what they mean by SNR. 50 db referenced to what? Is it unweighted? A-weighted? Over what frequency range?
 
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