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UMIK-1 vs Behringer ECM PRO + Focusrite Scarlett Solo 3Gen...

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coobah

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Hello everybody!

Currenlty having an UMIK-1 but I'm willing to switch to Focusrite Scarlett Solo 3Gen + Behringer ECM PRO analogue mic, just to have more precision in impulse response - time / phase alignment in REW in my car and home measurements.

Is this a good idea?
Will I sacrifice anything?
Shall I sell my UMIK-1 then or should I leave it, as it may become handy for some reason?
 
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Hi @coobah! Welcome to ASR.

coobah said:
Is this a good idea?
Click to expand...
For increased measurement flexibility, absolutely.

coobah said:
Will I sacrifice anything?
Click to expand...
The ability to easily and repeatably measure absolute SPL.

coobah said:
Shall I sell my UMIK-1 then or should I leave it, as it may become handy for some reason?
Click to expand...
You could keep the UMIK-1 as an SPL reference to calibrate your analog setup with, if absolute SPL is something you value.
 
Welcome to ASR! I agree with @staticV3, it is a good idea to get an XLR mic + interface. Owning an interface is great, they are really flexible and can do things that you can't anticipate. Like - double as a headphone amp, double as an outboard DAC, you can turn your hifi into a karaoke machine, etc. You can also do measurements which are very difficult if not impossible to do with a USB mic, such as loopback timing measurements. In fact almost any timing measurement is better achieved with an XLR mic.

If you are getting a Behringer ECM8000, make sure you get the calibrated version. The cheapest ECM8000's do not come with a calibration file.
 
Thanks for the quick response guys. So... Decided that I will swap them as getting impulse measuremants is a PITA at the moment and actually I dont really trust them and... honestly I don't really care about calibrated SPL...

Actually I think about the ECM PRO from Behringer instead of the ECM8000 as a lot of people recommend it here, saying it's more precise down low in the bass/subbass territory...
 
Your UMIK-1 is absolutely capable of measuring SPL accurately. In fact, if your UMIK-1 is calibrated AND if you have the correct calibration file loaded, it will measure SPL more accurately than an uncalibrated XLR microphone.

What you should not trust are the timing measurements on a USB mic. SPL measurements are perfectly fine.

I just took a look at the Behringer ECM Pro because I have never heard of it. I own two ECM8000's and an Earthworks M30 by the way. This part of their marketing spiel is absolutely bollocks:

1743857063933.png


There are NO mics that "boast a ruler-flat FR". Not unless they are calibrated. So, do you need a cal file?

1743857253490.png


This shows the variance in a few dozen ECM8000's measured by Cross-Spectrum Labs. Unless you are happy with +/- 5dB at either extreme of your FR, then yes you need a cal file.

And "omnidirectional" mics are not truly omnidirectional. All of them have a polar response. It would be more accurate to say they omnidirectional in intention only, and only omni in some frequencies and not others.
 
I have both, and after getting the Umik I never user Berhringer/Focusrite. Umik is superior in every way and more accurate and easier to use. Forget the Behringer/ Focusrite…
Every Umik-1 has a individual Calibration file that suits REW for measurements
 
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Guys... but that's just what I wrote before.... I want to buy the interface/mic combo to get timing reference (loopback)
I know UMKII is far easier to use but having no timing reference bothers me a bit...

Do you think that ECM8000 will be better than the ECM Pro???

Or maybe.... maybe I should buy the cheapest Behringer 2in2out inteface and the cheapest 2nd hand ECM8000 I can find just to measure impulse leaving my UMIK-1 for the FR/SPL measurements?
 
Unless you are doing crossover measurements the UMIK is good enough, i don't think you'll gain much just for regular measurements ...
 
It just depends on what you want to do. However, since you explicitly mention that you want to set up a timing reference, an XLR microphone with a suitable 2-channel audio interface would definitely be preferable in my opinion.

I would also like to mention that a timing reference can also be set up with a USB microphone: but it would then be acoustic, not electrical. However, of all the measurement programmes available, only REW seems to support this method. You also have to take a few things into account with this method, which is why I think it is quite error-prone.

*edit*:
If measurements are made in order to import them into a simulation programme such as VituixCAD for the purpose of crossover development, a timing reference is IMHO a mandatory requirement.
 
coobah said:
Guys... but that's just what I wrote before.... I want to buy the interface/mic combo to get timing reference (loopback)
Click to expand...
If your only interest for your new gear is timing reference and / or acoustics measurements (i.e. ETC), any off-the-shelf so-called measurement mic is fine, right out of the box. No calibration is needed.

However, if you intend to also take frequency response measurements, the mic should be calibrated. Cross Spectrum Labs is a good vendor for mic calibration.

Cross·Spectrum Labs - Sound | Vibration | Engineering

Based in East Longmeadow Massachusetts, Cross-Spectrum Labs provides acoustical consulting services including sound and vibration measurements, noise control, home theater design and litigation support
www.cross-spectrum.com www.cross-spectrum.com

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
coobah said:
Do you think that ECM8000 will be better than the ECM Pro???
Click to expand...

I did a bit of googling because I was curious. Here is a thread on DIYAudio, and here is another thread on DIYMobileAudio. Both those discussions compare the ECM Pro with the ECM8000, but neither of those threads have an absolute reference, i.e. a mic with known calibration from a reputable company. Just reading those threads, I can't tell you if one mic is giving more accurate readings than the other. All I can tell you is that they seem to be different.

If absolute accuracy is a must, then ANY mic which has been professionally calibrated will do. And I don't mean those highly suspect "calibration" files that you download from Behringer without having to enter a serial number!

coobah said:
Or maybe.... maybe I should buy the cheapest Behringer 2in2out inteface and the cheapest 2nd hand ECM8000 I can find just to measure impulse leaving my UMIK-1 for the FR/SPL measurements?
Click to expand...

I own 3 interfaces - a RME Fireface UC, a Presonus Audiobox USB, and a first gen Focusrite 2i2. The latter two don't come with mixer software. All 3 have been reliable, but the Presonus has the worst drivers and I would strongly advise against buying a Presonus. The Focusrite is great for its price, but it does not compare with the RME for functionality. Since you mentioned loopback measurements, on a Focusrite you will be using a cable and you will lose one analog input when you do your loopback. With my RME, the loopback is done in the mixer, and I can use unused digital channels. No need for cables. In fact, no need to get off my lazy butt to touch the RME at all. I can control everything from my PC and with RME Totalmix.

What I am trying to say here is: the interface matters. Driver support matters, and sometimes software does not play nicely with less well known interfaces. Stick with the big brands with a known history of product support. If you are on a tight budget, I would choose Focusrite over Behringer any day of the week. If not on a tight budget, choose Motu or RME or Lynx. If you are very wealthy, then Merging or Antelope.

I can vouch for my Focusrite - mine is a first gen product, I bought it soon after it came out. That means it is close to 15 years old, and the drivers work on Windows 11. At this point I am amazed that it even works considering how much I paid for it. It was so cheap and has worked flawlessly for so long, that if it died, I would still feel that I got a lot of value from my purchase.

But since you asked about microphones, the no. 1 most important feature is that it has a calibration you can trust. My Earthworks M30 cost more than 10x of my ECM8000, but I have a certain peace of mind knowing that I can absolutely trust what it tells me.
 
coobah said:
Guys... but that's just what I wrote before.... I want to buy the interface/mic combo to get timing reference (loopback)
I know UMKII is far easier to use but having no timing reference bothers me a bit...

Do you think that ECM8000 will be better than the ECM Pro???

Or maybe.... maybe I should buy the cheapest Behringer 2in2out inteface and the cheapest 2nd hand ECM8000 I can find just to measure impulse leaving my UMIK-1 for the FR/SPL measurements?
Click to expand...
irrelevant problem . REW gives you a timing reference in the signal.
Do not buy a crap car because the colour is right
 
Balle Clorin said:
irrelevant problem . REW gives you a timing reference in the signal.
Do not buy a crap car because the colour is right
Click to expand...
I'm not so quick to label a problem as irrelevant for a reason. ;)

What REW offers is, as I have already written, an acoustic time reference. But if you use it without understanding what's going on and why, and how to manage it, it's about as useful as a goitre. Playing the timing signal over the same channel as the measurement signal, for example, makes no sense at all, which, I suspect, many people will not know.

That's why I wrote that there is a lot to consider and that the method is therefore quite error-prone, especially if, as I said, you don't really understand what the background is.

I therefore consider an electrical timing reference, such as XLR microphones and matching 2-channel audio interfaces with a loopback cable offer, to be much easier to use.
 
JohnPM did some tests to look at the timing inconsistencies of UMIK's. Summary: USB mic's that have internal clocks, such as the UMIK-2, have very stable timing. Those that don't, such as UMIK-1 (and probably UMM-6 too), are at the mercy of the USB bus clock.

Acoustic phase Measurements

Hi to all. I need your help to make a proper measurments of acoustic phase. Currently my 3-way system allows me to move all the speakers back and forth individually, but what interests me now is to be able to measure and evaluate the acoustic phase between mid and tweeter. I work like this: -...
www.avnirvana.com www.avnirvana.com
 
Nevertheless, a USB micro, even if it has an internal clock, must also synchronise with the clock of the audio interface that plays back the measurement signal.

I mean: you can try to rely on it. Or you can simply use a calibrated XLR microphone with a two-channel interface equipped with a loopback cable.
 
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Okay... In conclusion I know now that I shouldn't get rid of my UMIK-1 and... as it seems that nobody has actually did compare the impulse measurements with USB mic, to the ones with loopback tming reference... Most proly I'm gon be the one to do it :cool:

I just found a nice, barely used and decently poriced 3gen Solo... Being just curious now if i should get the ECM8000 or the ECM Pro... But... As it's just about the timing.... It may be that I'll take the 8000 without the cal file just for testing...
 
Why not go with the Dayton audio EMM 6 rather than support Behringer? It comes with a cal file.
www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone

Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement MicrophoneThe Dayton Audio EMM-6 is a precision electret condenser microphone designed for measurement and critical recording applications. The extremely flat frequency response and true omni-directional polar pattern make it perfect for use with room...
www.parts-express.com
 
Yes I forgot about Dayton.... funny as I'm having a few toys from them already but.... as I'm staying with my UMIK I don't want to pay 2.5x the price of the ECM8000
 
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