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UltraLite-mk5 Line Out → TDH-39 only 80 dB @ 1 kHz, expected 120 dB — what am I missing?

kulak

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Aug 10, 2022
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Hello friends,

I'm using the MOTU UltraLite-mk5 and connecting the RadioEar TDH-39 hearing test headphones to the line out port. I'm sending audio at 1000Hz, and I'm only getting 80dB. The target value was 120dB. Since we have no idea about this, I wanted to ask you guys. I've tried different settings in Cuemix, but I haven't gotten any results.
 
The THD39 claim to be 10Ω. You definitely don't want to connect those to Line out as you'll get abysmal impedance bridging, therefore significant voltage drop.

The Motu's Headphone out should perform better but even then, you may need to invest in a proper headphone amp (e.g. JDS Atom Amp2, Topping L30II).
 
Some questions -
Where did you get the 120dB number?

How are you measuring 80dB? (You can't just stick an SPL meter up to headphones but a 40dB difference/error is unbelievable.)

Do you have a multimeter to measure the voltage? (You'll probably have to make a splitter/adapter to connect the headphones and meter at the same time.) If you get a meter, make sure it can measure less than 1VAC. Some cheap meters can measure low DC but not low AC voltage. Most meters can't measure high frequencies accurately either but 1kHz is usually OK. Of course you'll also need some test tones so you can get a constant-measurable voltage.

Are you doing hearing tests? Those headphones are not designed for music. They probably don't sound very good and they probably don't sound like what you'll hear on good hi-fi headphones or good speakers/monitors. ;) Harman Curve


to the line out port.
Headphone out?

The specs for the headphone say 108dB +4dB @1mW and 10-Ohms. I assume that means 108-112dB? That's possible but given the purpose of these headphones I'd expect it to come individually measured and spec'd with a more precise number.

From my handy-dandy spreadsheet -
10mW into 10 Ohms = 0.316 Volts.


I made some more calculations -
The spec for the MOTU says +14dBu maximum from the headphone output. That's 5V = 2.5 Watts into 10-Ohms. (The headphones are only rated to 400mW so they should go plenty-loud.)

I've tried different settings in Cuemix,
Digital levels aren't automatically calibrated to analog or acoustic SPL levels, and there many variables (including the headphone volume knob). But they are directly correlated. i.e. If you lower the digital level by 3dB (a bigger negative number) the SPL levels also drop by 3dB (a lower positive number).

Some formulas -
Power (Wattage) = Voltage Squared / Resistance.

dB = 20 x log(V/Vref) i.e. Double the voltage is 6dB louder.

dB = 10 x log(P/Pref) i.e. Double the power is 3dB louder.

Please double-check my numbers, calculations, and formulas! ;) "Never do math in public."
 
The Motu's Headphone out should perform better but even then, you may need to invest in a proper headphone amp (e.g. JDS Atom Amp2, Topping L30II).
The headphone out will do 1.594 V into 33 ohms moderately happily...

index.php

...so one can hope for at least 0.483 V into 10 ohms (23 mW). That would be ~122 (±4) dB SPL.

A proper headphone amp may still be a better idea... it still wouldn't be super happy (loads <16 ohms do not generally tend to be considered) but ought to be more robust with a good bit more oomph. Some of the classic entry-level Lake People designs with their speaker amp ICs (LM1876 if memory serves) would be perfect... I don't know whether the current "MkII" G103-S/P models are still using them though, if memory serves those ICs are EOL. No, looks like there's a pair of OPA551s there now. Which is capable of higher supplies than the usual TPA6120A2 but I don't think would hold any advantages when driving very low-impedance loads.
 
"...so one can hope for at least 0.483 V into 10 ohms (23 mW). That would be ~122 (±4) dB SPL."
Perhaps reaching this level would be enough for us. The maximum level we've achieved so far is 112dB. We measure sound with our calibration device. In fact, we use it in the healthcare field. The TDH39 is also an audiological headset. In fact, if I can reach a level like 125 by simply adjusting the CueMix settings, the whole problem will be solved.
I'm both very unfamiliar with and inexperienced about sound cards. I was misled into thinking that I could get the sound I wanted by looking at the card's dynamic range.
Is it possible to reach a level like 125db by just making certain settings in cuemix or will I need to buy a new card?
If I want to buy a new card, can you recommend a sound card that will give me the output I want for a low impedance headphone (TDH39)?
We only use the sound card to connect audiological headphones. We don't use any of its other functions.
 
Is it possible to reach a level like 125db by just making certain settings in cuemix or will I need to buy a new card?
First, try using the Motu's Headphone output for connecting your Headphone. Not the Line out.
 
Hello friends,

I'm using the MOTU UltraLite-mk5 and connecting the RadioEar TDH-39 hearing test headphones to the line out port. I'm sending audio at 1000Hz, and I'm only getting 80dB. The target value was 120dB. Since we have no idea about this, I wanted to ask you guys. I've tried different settings in Cuemix, but I haven't gotten any results.

If post#2 is correct and the headphone is 10 Ohms, this is more like a loudspeaker than a headphone. Even the headphone output is probably not going to be all that effective. Use a small and inexpensive amplifier with adjustable gain AFTER the Ultralite mk5 and connect the headphone to the speaker outputs using an adapter. You will be able to get plenty of drive voltage into that load, but make sure that you can start at a low volume and adjust as necessary.
 
If post#2 is correct and the headphone is 10 Ohms, this is more like a loudspeaker than a headphone. Even the headphone output is probably not going to be all that effective. Use a small and inexpensive amplifier with adjustable gain AFTER the Ultralite mk5 and connect the headphone to the speaker outputs using an adapter. You will be able to get plenty of drive voltage into that load, but make sure that you can start at a low volume and adjust as necessary.
Good idea, but then I hope that the TDH39 wiring is using the seemingly common (but not universal) two separate mono 1/4" plugs, which would mean a lot more choice of potential candidates for speaker power amps. If the cable only sports a stereo 1/4" plug instead, the amplifier would need to have a traditional single-ended output with both L and R output grounds connected together. Many Class D amplifiers in particular have bridged (BTL) outputs with both + and - terminals being actively driven, which means L- and R- must not be shorted together under any circumstances. That includes a lot of small and inexpensive models. The two plug wiring can accommodate these just fine, the stereo jack cannot. (Side note, a model with PFFB would be recommended for better frequency response accuracy, although with a frequency range of up to 8 kHz only it wouldn't be a truly major concern.)
Also, ideally you want a model of modest gain, like around or sub-20 dB. Even then, there should still be enough maximum output to let the magic smoke escape from the headset. Output noise level should be quite low as well. Even relatively small drivers strapped to your ears are much more sensitive than loudspeakers at a distance of not much less than one up to several meters. From that perspective your best bet may be a 3e Audio A5 (gain 16 dB with volume bypassed, SINAD 105 dB at 5W/4 ohm) or perhaps Topping PA5 II (25 dB, same SINAD), both $200 and change and thus the cheapest anywhere near on the chart by far.

Now obviously, the variant with a stereo jack could be accomodated with a decently stout headphone amplifier instead, as previously discussed. That should generally make noise a non-issue, although driving 10 ohms may be a bit of a stretch as loads below 16 ohms aren't commonly considered. I would still trust an Atom Amp+ / 2, Topping L30 II (L50) or similar to do a decent enough job.

BTW, an Ultralite in this application is like buying a schoolbus for hauling your groceries. It can be done but is neither fast nor cheap, and many seats will remain unoccupied.

Now if the headset wiring is of the two plug type, I can at least understand where the idea came from. The mistake was going by mechanical compatibility while not realizing that things were a poor match on the electrical side (the expected load for one of the line level outputs would be in the 600 ohm to 20 kOhm range, with very little in terms of power transfer). In this case, going for a set of mechanical adapters (bare wire or possibly banana plug on twin lead speaker or power wire to 1/4" mono jack, tip = +) means that you can easily use an amplifier designed to drive 4-8 ohm loads to much higher power than you'll ever need. That's actually to the point where you need to watch out for problems on the opposite end instead, i.e. noise.
 
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