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Ultra high end speaker manufacturers that rely heavily on measurements?

gnarly

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Martin Audio is one the biggest names on the PA world. They live with measurements!
Yes indeed. And talk about a scientific, measurement based R&D approach.
Martin's MLA system is a killer piece of high tech.

I know home audio is inclined to think, "what the heck do large scale touring line arrays like Martin's MLA have to do with hi-fi?" ....

I've watched home and pro for a few decades now, and often the new tech that emerges in pro......
such as low freq cardioid patterning, high freq beam steering, use of FIR filters, greater efforts on time and phase alignment, etc....
starts showing up in home audio after a while, only obviously scaled down. But science being the same...
 

bkdc

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With today’s technology, exotic materials and unusual designs don’t yield better sound. Best to spend all that effort on room treatments and speaker placement in a room. At a certain threshold, it’s a matter of taste/preference.

A R&D scientific approach to very expensive sound? The TAD (formerly Pioneer) Reference One or Reference One Compact. The Evolution One probably sounds just as good but doesn’t look as upscale. TAD takes sound seriously. High quality finish but nothing that looks like it came out of a modern art museum.
 

fineMen

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And Focal uses a Klippel Analyser for driver development, so I can't imagine they just throw some drivers togheter to build a speaker.

Klippel blessed us with two different systems. First one is for raw driver measurement, the other used here for the measurement of the spinorama of a completed speaker.

Again, from the original question it is not at all clear what measurements are meant, neither is declared, how the measurements are interpreted.

In the unlikely case You care about "science" You for sure acknowledge that a measurement alone doesn't tell anything. It is the "model", the "theory" that makes a coherent understanding what it means. In its generality, combined with the meaningless buzz-word "high end", emphasised in all its glorious emptiness by "ultra" the question doesn't make any sense.

Translating science to engineering the science--referring to an operational model, a theory, then may state a target. The measurement would confirm "mission accomplished".

Reiterated, there is a very complicated story with KEF, England. At all times they were alone (!) reliant on measurements. No deliberate b/s (other than JBL in its history). But the operational model for the speaker as an expedient technical device has changed considerably. E/g, back in the day only the direct sound was considered. Directivity was of some concern, but only in respect to listening off axis. It resulted in the KEF Calinda, an 8" woffer/midrange plus a 3/4" tweeter crossed over at 3,5kHz. Compare to what they do today. Same utter reliance on measurements, different theory.

The original question spares out any thought about the relevant context. Buzz-wording no. It scrutinises the possibility of having two words in one sentence, namely "high end" and "measurement". I dunno who might be fancied so much by the canonical vocabulary from those blistering magazines. As explicated above, both terms are empty. The former always, the latter if not understood.

And then You debate, if a pro p/a manufacturer is in real engineering.
 
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jhaider

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With today’s technology, exotic materials and unusual designs don’t yield better sound. Best to spend all that effort on room treatments and speaker placement in a room. At a certain threshold, it’s a matter of taste/preference.

A R&D scientific approach to very expensive sound? The TAD (formerly Pioneer) Reference One or Reference One Compact. The Evolution One probably sounds just as good but doesn’t look as upscale. TAD takes sound seriously. High quality finish but nothing that looks like it came out of a modern art museum.
TAD Evolution One itself is a basically the new version of an earlier, relatively much cheaper speaker - Pioneer S-1EX. The cabinets are fairly different (I assume Evo One has more expensive veneer - I've only heard the earlier Pioneer; interestingly the earlier one is a good bit heavier) but the measurements show the lineage.

@Kal Rubinson's reviews:
Pioneer S-1EX ($9000 in 2007): https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/307piosex/index.html
TAD Evolution One ($30k in 2013, do not know current price): https://www.stereophile.com/content/tad-evolution-one-loudspeaker

IMO it's unfortunate the Pioneer EX line never caught on. They were very good speakers and IMO well priced and finished for their performance. They also had IMO the first really good in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, though they were also priced at the bleeding edge of that market when introduced, and introduced with the worst timing possible (right into the Dubya Bush global economic crash).
 

Ilkless

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TAD Evolution One itself is a basically the new version of an earlier, relatively much cheaper speaker - Pioneer S-1EX. The cabinets are fairly different (I assume Evo One has more expensive veneer - I've only heard the earlier Pioneer; interestingly the earlier one is a good bit heavier) but the measurements show the lineage.

@Kal Rubinson's reviews:
Pioneer S-1EX ($9000 in 2007): https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/307piosex/index.html
TAD Evolution One ($30k in 2013, do not know current price): https://www.stereophile.com/content/tad-evolution-one-loudspeaker

IMO it's unfortunate the Pioneer EX line never caught on. They were very good speakers and IMO well priced and finished for their performance. They also had IMO the first really good in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, though they were also priced at the bleeding edge of that market when introduced, and introduced with the worst timing possible (right into the Dubya Bush global economic crash).


On a related note,I was extremely surprised to find out the new Evolution Two floorstander uses a beryllium tweeter in a waveguide, rather than a coax. Strikes me as a move to segment the product line so that the coaxs are reserved for the Reference series. Really love the design of the Reference series - its like the old KEF 20x reference series crossed with Sonus Faber.

The few boutique high-end brands I'd buy budget permitting are Magico, Vivid or TAD incidentally. I've always said the Magico A5 is a stonking value compared to the 328Be, when it was still 5k more than the Revel for US production, trick drivers, the insane braced aluminium enclosure, wonderful finishing and haptics, and excellent measurements except for a muted top octave.
 

Kal Rubinson

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On a related note,I was extremely surprised to find out the new Evolution Two floorstander uses a beryllium tweeter in a waveguide, rather than a coax. Strikes me as a move to segment the product line so that the coaxs are reserved for the Reference series.
Yes and, also, the cabinet is a disappointment.
 

Ilkless

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Yes and, also, the cabinet is a disappointment.

Not very competitive compared to Vivid Kaya or Magico A-series - all the boutique credentials, amazing cabinets, as good if not better engineering, much more displacement.

And as for 20+k speakers in the slimline floorstander format - you have the likes of Raidho who have much better cabinets too. Headscratching.

And to compare flagships from Japanese consumer electronics giants - seems to lag behind the SS-AR1 or NS-5000.
 

Hammer

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Has anyone done any independent measurements of YG speakers? I know they are touted as measuring very flat and when I looked into purchasing a Devialet system, the correction profile for their Sonja 1.3 was very flat meaning not much, if any, correction was needed. Would one consider that as an independent measurement. I imagine they would be too heavy to ship for measurements…
 

Nabussan

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Bang & Olufson provides state of the art engineering especially the beolap 90 is more advanced than almost any other speaker and of cause measures well.

Some interesting companies which aren't often mentioned here but none of the less have a great engineering team:


ME Geithain

GedLee
I listened to the Beolab 90s today (program: Ultimate Demonstration: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening plus the latest recording of Mozart's piano sonatas by Levin, superbly mastered, probably with Quad ELS63 loudspeakers). I was certainly underwhelmed in comparison to both the ME Geithain (RL901K) and the GedLees (Abbeys) with which I am quite familiar (I have the Abbeys). Backes & Müller loudspeakers impressed me many years ago.
In a better listening room and with higher volumes, the Beolabs might sound better than I experienced it today. But there is certainly no need to pay nearly 9 times the amount you have to pay for a pair of the RL901Ks for which the probably over-engineered Beolabs, in my opinion, are no match
 

Bleib

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Revel
Ino Audio / Guru Audio
 

Rja4000

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Ultra High End ?
Like the Genelec 1236A ?
It's all about measurements.
You just have to build your house around it.
As it should be.
 

test1223

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I listened to the Beolab 90s today (program: Ultimate Demonstration: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening plus the latest recording of Mozart's piano sonatas by Levin, superbly mastered, probably with Quad ELS63 loudspeakers). I was certainly underwhelmed in comparison to both the ME Geithain (RL901K) and the GedLees (Abbeys) with which I am quite familiar (I have the Abbeys). Backes & Müller loudspeakers impressed me many years ago.
In a better listening room and with higher volumes, the Beolabs might sound better than I experienced it today. But there is certainly no need to pay nearly 9 times the amount you have to pay for a pair of the RL901Ks for which the probably over-engineered Beolabs, in my opinion, are no match
The room acoustic is very important. Most of the B&O showrooms aren't that good in that regard. I wouldn't call the Beolab 90 over-engineered at all. The beam steering is advanced there is tones of research implemented in a lot detail aspects but it is obviously not a price performance speaker.
 

fpitas

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Has anyone done any independent measurements of YG speakers? I know they are touted as measuring very flat and when I looked into purchasing a Devialet system, the correction profile for their Sonja 1.3 was very flat meaning not much, if any, correction was needed. Would one consider that as an independent measurement. I imagine they would be too heavy to ship for measurements…

Bizarre notch at 3.2kHz, but otherwise not bad. As they note, they might need some bass boost EQ to really sound good.
 

Dennis Murphy

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Bizarre notch at 3.2kHz, but otherwise not bad. As they note, they might need some bass boost EQ to really sound good.
That's probably a tweeter diffraction effect that often rears its head around 3 kHz. It's hard to eliminate with a passive crossover without resorting to a complex topology with a notch filter that's very sensitive to small variations in driver parameters.
 

Kal Rubinson

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The room acoustic is very important. Most of the B&O showrooms aren't that good in that regard. I wouldn't call the Beolab 90 over-engineered at all. The beam steering is advanced there is tones of research implemented in a lot detail aspects but it is obviously not a price performance speaker.
I've heard the Beolab 90s in a number of locations (including my own home) and their performance varied widely. When they are right, they are stupendous but setup is not trivial. (Is it ever?)
 

Descartes

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What ultra high end manufacturers out there rely heavily on measurements and produce products that measure really well?

Vivid, YG Acoustics, Grimm, B&O, Focal and Magico are some that come to mind for me. Maybe Rockport?
Focal
 

mwmkravchenko

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I have read almost every post in this thread. Ultra high end. What a thought. Nebulous as it may be.

What I can comment on is simple. 99% of loudspeakers use drivers that you can buy. Put them into boxes that a competent Cabinetmaker or DIY person could make and call them high end. The root cost, the BOM is modest. As is the design time. They are cookie cutter loudspeakers that get reviewed and differentiated by imaginary differences based on reviewers that know little about what they are talking about. I left 1% on purpose and that to be true is being generous. The few remainders actually purpose design their drivers and understand what they are doing. TAD,GENELEC, a few others like KEF and B&W and DYNAUDIO.

Ultra highend should cover the entire musical spectrum. 16 hertz to 20k plus. But how many manufacturers produce a loudspeaker with enough swept volume to generate even 40 hertz at concert levels? Never mind 16 hertz. That requires about 5 litres a side of displacement. Same goes for the midbass and midrange. Most loudspeakers are displacement limited in that the required swept volume to attain say 105db peaks is limited by the distortion that said screaming driver is being pressed into. The fantasy that more watts mean moar louder always hits a hard limit.

So with a little work you can design, and engineer a true SOTA loudspeaker. But I see few. Even in the listing amongst this thread.

I know that there are designers of loudspeakers that have read this thread, I am one of those. I design drivers and finished systems. And have done one loudspeaker that tackled most of what I mentioned. uniform dispersion over a targeted beam width. Targeted frequency response, and distortion limits. But to do this right it takes great drivers. And some of them need to be custom to do it in a reasonable way. Custom as in actually produced for an OEM. Not for mass consumption.

So how much can you do this for? Depends on where you want to stop. I have worked with a few companies that we really have pushed what has been done previously to levels that are farther ahead of almost everything we have looked at. Cabinet design being one of the major issues after driver design. Ultra high end should not look like a box, be it wood, composite or metal. But tell me how many don't. Diffraction was well understood in the 50's as was a great many other things. But we still se enclosures that have egregious internal standing waves and ports in the front that sing along until you plug them or move them to the back and only then notice.

What I have noticed most is that our ears get accustomed to distortions that are in most loudspeakers. And when they are absent a discerning listener cannot go back. Is it kind to many recordings? No. That's a whole other topic for discussion. But a great loudspeaker will shred a poor recording, and reasonably recreate the event on a great recording.

My two cents.

Mark
 

sarumbear

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Other than the following obvious contradiction in your argument you seem to have a very limited knowledge about the market.

99% of loudspeakers use drivers that you can buy.

The few remainders actually purpose design their drivers and understand what they are doing. TAD,GENELEC, a few others like KEF and B&W and DYNAUDIO.
 

mwmkravchenko

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Other than the following obvious contradiction in your argument you seem to have a very limited knowledge about the market.
It is common knowledge that the vast majority of loudspeaker drivers are sourced by a few vendors.

As for Limited knowledge, I don't claim to know every single company out there. I read this thread.

As for what I know, I started in this business in 1989. I started as a box builder and stuffer. Kind of moved up the food chain a little since then.

I can look at loudspeakers and tell you who makes what in a few minutes. As can anyone that is actually in this business. I am guessing that you can do the same.

The claims of custom this and that for companies are exactly that claims. The two expensive names that keep getting repeated are YG and Magico. Seas, and Morel make their drivers. Or their motors. They are conventional drivers that get window dressing. The designs are competent for a certain range of music. Are they Ultra high end? Not really. Not when you think through the criteria I mentioned. Criteria that you never mentioned by the way.

To measure you need metrics. When you have established these metrics you can compare x,y,z. Otherwise what is written is simply opinion. Everyone of us has an opinion. Everyone of those opinions is equally valid. It's the application and use of these metrics that truly can differentiate good, bad and spectacular.

Mark
 

sarumbear

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