two Yamaha HS8 + two HS8-S subs: "2.2" System ?

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

Dear Forum contributors: hi everyone. I need your advice.

I'd like to set up a system with a pair of Yamaha HS8 studio monitors and—here's the peculiarity—not one but a pair of Yamaha HS8-S subwoofers. So it wouldn't be a 2.1 system but a "2.2" (or, better said, a pseudo-3-way). The goal is for home hi-fi listening (I'm not a producer and I don't do recording, but I like studio monitors: they generally sound good and perform better than a lot of overpriced hi-fi/high-end stuff). Why not just buy a 3-way, you might ask? Well, because, staying in the active studio monitor realm, 3-ways are significantly more expensive and definitely beyond my budget. I can't afford an active 3-way from Focal, nor from Neumann, nor Dynaudio, nor ATC, etc. So I'll stick with Yamaha, which, despite being entry-level, is still a good product.
The wiring configuration I'd like to implement is:

1) Use left and right XLR cables to exit the monitor controller/audio interface, and connect to the subs with a Y-split. That is, for each L/R output channel of the audio interface: one XLR on the interface side, which splits into two XLRs on the sub. Therefore, an identical signal on L and R would enter in each of the two subs.

2) From the left sub, I use a "reversed" Y split cable compared to before. That is, the L and R output of the left sub merges into a single cable, which goes to the left satellite input. While from the right sub, the L and R outputs of the sub merge into a single cable, which goes to the right satellite input.

I'd like to cross-over a sub with its satellite using the sub's high-pass/low-pass filter. I'd like to cross-over at the highest frequency the filter allows (120 Hz).
Why? My goal isn't just to get more bass from the HS8s.
The goal is also to achieve greater clarity in the HS8s' midrange, without forcing them to play extremely low notes (thus making them operate with less distortion on low/very low frequencies they shouldn't be reproducing, benefiting a mid-low and midrange with much less distortion).
So, in order to relieve the HS8 cone as much as possible from the burden of reproducing bass that is too deep (and therefore distorting), I have to cross it at the highest possible frequency allowed by the sub's filter.
The 120 Hz and surrounding freqs. fall in a range where the human ear begins to distinguish stereophony. As far as I know, from about 80/90 Hz down, we no longer hear bass directionality. But higher up we should, so if I cross-over at 120 Hz, I think it's helpful to have the subs in Stereo.

Many stereo recordings are said to have the bass recorded in mono (so making stereophony on the subs unnecessary). It's true, many pop and rock recordings are recorded this way, but there are many classical recordings, for example, where stereophony on the bass is present, and I wouldn't want to deprive myself of it.

These are the main considerations leading me to evaluate this "2.2" configuration. What do you think? Do you have experience with configurations like these? What pros and cons do you see? Do you see any conceptual errors in my idea of wiring?

Thanks a lot in advance for your contribution.

PS: edited for some typos.

 

[DSJR]

Two subs are better than one and a swarm of them is best of all I gather... This for helping to sort room issues out.

Apologise for confusion here, but can't you use each HS8 plus sub as an individual channel, so the subs don't have a mono signal? So, the left signal goes to the dedicated sub and HS8 and the right signal to the other HS8 plus sub?

Can the sub, fed with a full bandwidth signal, output a high-passed signal to the HS8, is what I'm asking?

Please excuse the clumsy questions here.

 

[DVDdoug]

1) Use left and right XLR cables to exit the monitor controller/audio interface, and connect to the subs with a Y-split. That is, for each L/R output channel of the audio interface: one XLR on the interface side, which splits into two XLRs on the sub. Therefore, an identical signal on L and R would enter in each of the two subs.

2) From the left sub, I use a "reversed" Y split cable compared to before. That is, the L and R output of the left sub merges into a single cable, which goes to the left satellite input. While from the right sub, the L and R outputs of the sub merge into a single cable, which goes to the right satellite input.

Sorry, I can't follow that...

But you should NOT use a Y-Splitter as a mixer. Splitting is OK but combining/mixing is not. It's OK to "short" two or more inputs together (i.e. split) but you should NEVER SHORT OUTPUTS TOGETHER.

You can split the signals to both subs. Then use the outputs of one sub to drive the main speakers, leaving the outputs on the other sub unconnected. (Or you could use the left output from one sub and the right output from the other.)

Or, you can route just the left channel through the left sub, connecting the high-passed output to the left main speaker, and do the same with the right sub, and no splitters are required! That wiill allow for full-stereo bass (to whatever extent it exists in the recordings).

 

[ehabheikal]

The kali sub is very highly praise and is within budget. Also neumann kh80 can be a better choice for monitor as long as you have subs.

 

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and caveat about the Y splitting. I was thinking it was better to keep fed both the L+R inputs to each single subs, if the woofer is a double voice coil unit (not sure of that: yamaha seems to not declare specs about the downfiring 8'' driver of the HS8S). In such a case, without using Y cables, it seemed to me incorrect to leave one of the woofer's coils without a signal (even if it was a mono signal: L and R equal).

But maybe the Mono sum/conversion for bass frequencies is made in the amp board, and then sent to driver which is a normal "single coil" woofer.
If things are in this way, I could avoid to Y-split anything, so:

L-OUT from the audio interface ---> L-IN of the left SUB, then: L-OUT of the left sub ---> IN of the left Sat.
R-OUT from the audio interface ---> R-IN of the right SUB, then: R-OUT of the right sub ---> IN of the right Sat.

With this wiring, some XLR connectors in the subs are unused:

R-IN and R-OUT of the Left sub = unused
L-IN and L-OUT of the Right sub = unused

Is this wiring feasible in your opinion?

 

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

Two subs are better than one and a swarm of them is best of all I gather... This for helping to sort room issues out.

Apologise for confusion here, but can't you use each HS8 plus sub as an individual channel, so the subs don't have a mono signal? So, the left signal goes to the dedicated sub and HS8 and the right signal to the other HS8 plus sub?

Can the sub, fed with a full bandwidth signal, output a high-passed signal to the HS8, is what I'm asking?

Please excuse the clumsy questions here.

Yes, the output of the sub is high passed (and sub itself if low-passed).

Since I would try a configuration with two HS8-S subs, I thought I could drive only one channel in each (i.e., only L in the left sub and only R in the right sub). But the input of a single sub is stereo (both L & R), so I was unsure whether leaving a free channel in the sub—an unused, unconnected channel—would be a problem, especially if the sub's woofer was a dual voice coil one (but I'm not sure; Yamaha doesn't seem to mention that in the specs).

 

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

The kali sub is very highly praise and is within budget. Also neumann kh80 can be a better choice for monitor as long as you have subs.

In fact, these are products I've been looking at, since some time. I've heard several Neumanns, with/without room compensation, and I've been favorably impressed. However, I've never had the chance to hear Kali in a live demo.

 

[ehabheikal]

I have the kh80 with dual hs8s subs and they sound great but i would buy the kali sub if i were buying today. There is a measurement of kali sub somewhere.

 

[ehabheikal]

 

[dfuller]

Okay, you say 3 ways are out of budget.

Kali makes the IN-8; it's about the same cost as the HS-8, but massively better. The HS series are really quite bad - very harsh, limited low end for their size, no headroom.

As far as integrating subs - doing it properly pretty much requires a separate crossover.

 

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

I have the kh80 with dual hs8s subs and they sound great but i would buy the kali sub if i were buying today. There is a measurement of kali sub somewhere.

How is your wiring from source/Audio Interface ---> to subs ---> to sats? Do you use only one channel in each of your subs, I suppose? (I.e. in the left sub, only L-in and L-out are connected, while R-in and R-out unused? Opposite situation for the other sub?)

 

[CheapAudioEnthusiast]

Okay, you say 3 ways are out of budget.

Kali makes the IN-8; it's about the same cost as the HS-8, but massively better. The HS series are really quite bad - very harsh, limited low end for their size, no headroom.

As far as integrating subs - doing it properly pretty much requires a separate crossover.

In my area, it seems a bit difficult right now to hear and see a couple of IN-8s in person. One online retailer and distributor I found, only has SM-8s in stock, but they cost almost ten times as much.
I'd have to order the IN-8s, which he says would arrive in three weeks, but I don't want to buy blind.
I'll keep your suggestion in mind, though.

 

[3125b]

Personally, I massively prefer coaxials for nearfield use. I can't deal with the vertical directivity issues of traditional designs for that application.

Now that being said, I agree with dfuller that the Yamaha HS series are quite bad, some of the weaker yet comparatively expensive budget monitors you can buy.
The sub is plain bad value for money,

Spoiler: ...

not really purposefully engineered in any meaningful way (like most cheap, small subs they just kinda slapped a driver in a box with a hole, leading to uncontrolled distortion and other issues below the resonance frequency of the port, which is well within the audible spectrum), and in terms of output even two of them are underwhelming.
[Not a particularly useful comparison, but if you didn't need the crossover you could get several times the output of a pair of the Yamaha subs from a single 14" Klipsch for the same amount of money for example.]

It may be a good idea to start over; what is available to you locally (and where would that be)?

 

[EJasonC]

I have a pair of Yamaha HS8's in my small office system anchored by a single Yamaha HS8S sub.
I have them crossed over at exactly 100Hz with gain settings at 50% on all; both monitors and sub.

The idea of adding a second HS8S is intriguing but NOT the idea of wiring configuration with Y-splitters, especially in a balanced system.
I do not know whether or not the amplifier in the HS8S is actually a stereo amp driving two separate voice coils.
I would contact Yamaha to find out; but the picture on the back of the sub seems to indicate otherwise.
I've contacted them before inquiring about the balanced connections on my Yamaha MG10XU mixer.
They were extremely helpful in understanding both the complexities and simplicities of a fully balanced system chain.

That said, I would simply connect to only ONE of the two inputs on each HS8S.
Using either Left or Right input should not matter, but using a splitter to send to both inputs seems at best, redundant.
I would also strongly caution AGAINST using a Y-splitter on the outputs!

As far as experience with two subs configured similarly, my 7.2 channel HT system is fully balanced with all active pro audio studio monitors and subwoofers.
Having two subwoofers was a game changer and I would never go back to one sub.

However, I'm not so sure I would add another sub to my Yamaha 2.1 system simply because it's in a significantly smaller space than my HT.
And besides, the HS8 monitors by themselves to my ears are quite good even without the one HS8S sub or Low Cut - Off.

My HT system on the other hand has a fully balanced surround sound processor w/ 2 discrete subwoofer outputs that can be configured dual mono or stereo.
I have experimented with both and frequently switch depending on the source.
For the most part but not always, for movies, I usually configure dual mono; for music, stereo.