Two pairs of the speakers in the same room - is it a problem?

[Cote Dazur]

The question is, if there is something wrong with putting 2 pairs of speakers side by side? I think that I have read somthing about why it's a bad idea but I can't find those information now.
Picture below shows what I have in mind.

To the question, is there something wrong, the answer is yes, on so many levels, that to me it bears to be answered by an other question, or 2.
What for?
What are you actually trying to achieve that a better pair well positioned cannot achieve better?

 

[krabapple]

There is no need for different speakers for 'Hifi and HT'. Gear don't care what it's playin'.

The only real consideration is whether/how to use a center channel speaker. Using an AVR would make this simple, since you can 'tell' the AVR that you don't use a center channel, and any HT/surround center content would be redirected accordingly.

 

[gnarly]

There is no need for different speakers for 'Hifi and HT'. Gear don't care what it's playin'.

I guess that's probably true for most folks.

Can't say it works for me though...
I prefer separate systems for HT and h-fi.
For me, HT is a smaller area setup, with smaller speakers and less SPL capability than my considerably larger hi-fi set up.

The only real consideration is whether/how to use a center channel speaker. Using an AVR would make this simple, since you can 'tell' the AVR that you don't use a center channel, and any HT/surround center content would be redirected accordingly.

For HT, very much agree with the center channel decision. I find one almost always helps me hear voices better.

Ironically, on my "hi-fi" setup with left and right speakers nearly 20 ft apart, I have such a rock solid center image, a center speaker adds much less.
But then again, i guess put all my 'audio perfection effort' into the hi-fi setup...not HT.

 

[krabapple]

I guess that's probably true for most folks.

Can't say it works for me though...
I prefer separate systems for HT and h-fi.
For me, HT is a smaller area setup, with smaller speakers and less SPL capability than my considerably larger hi-fi set up.

But that's not an intrinsic 'need', in order to do HT. That's just your particular, chosen, situation.

 

[gnarly]

But that's not an intrinsic 'need', in order to do HT. That's just your particular, chosen, situation.

Uhhh...the only real intrinsic needs are the likes of food, shelter, and clothing.........

We don't 'need' HT .........or hi-fi



Sorry, never mind, this kind of distinction debate is silly....

 

[krabapple]

Please. The question was whether HT audio and 'Hifi' audio necessarily require different loudspeakers. That's all 'intrinsic need' means here. It's a claim sometimes made by home audio enthusiasts. It's not true.

You 'require' them because of your particular circumstances.

 

[gnarly]

Please. The question was whether HT audio and 'Hifi' audio necessarily require different loudspeakers. That's all 'intrinsic need' means here. It's a claim sometimes made by home audio enthusiasts. It's not true.

No. The question was clearly stated, in the OP's first sentence....."The question is, if there is something wrong with putting 2 pairs of speakers side by side?"

A few folks have answered the question.
Others, like you, have decided he needs advice he didn't ask for ....

 

[krabapple]

'Others'...starting with the first reply. And the third. And the fifth. And the...

Hmm, could that mean something is fundamentally amiss with the OP's premise?

 

[amper42]

There is nothing wrong with having multiple speakers in the room. People do it all the time when they play a 7.2.4 HT system in stereo. You can also have a separate setup for stereo. You can drag all the speakers out but two and you won't be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Everybody has a theory but don't expect it to hold up with your ears.

As to whether you need separate speakers the answer is obviously no. But some like to not have to plug and unplug based on desired use and many of us have way too many speakers anyway.

 

[Bugal1998]

For what it's worth, I'm doing a best effort 2-channel/HT room, with 2-channel (with subs) as the top priority. When listening to stereo music, I'll have 19 drivers with a diameter of 5" or more in the room that won't be in use. I have no concern whatsoever that they will degrade the sound in the room.

Now side-by-side speakers may mean one (or both) sets of speakers are in a less than optimal position, and they may block or interfere with the off-axis output of each other. Hence my earlier post with ideas to mitigate such potential interference.

 

[SlowCar]

Wow, so many responses!

And also the problem I had in mind when creating this topic has been mentioned first by @Ken Tajalli :

Speakers use their cabinets, ports or transmission lines to boost the bass output at the point, where the output of the driver diaphragm is loosing effective ity.
Consider a pair of speakers as Drums! if you tap the diaphragm, it generates a sound. The frequency of that sound is tuned by the designer to have a fundamental at a certain frequency, unique to that speaker. Different speakers, create sounds (if the diaphragm is excited in any way) of different fundamental frequencies.
Here is our problem!
- The unused-speaker's diaphragm gets excited by the sound of the music-playing speaker. What does it do? it generates the said tuned-frequency, which will get mixed up with the sound of the active speaker, distorting its sound! Actually a drum in the room, acts in a very similar manner.
There is one method, hifi dealers minimize this effect. That is by short-circuiting the terminals of inactive speakers. This uses the back-emf of the diaphragm-coil to dampen the effect.

So it seems that it will be potential problem. Question is - how big? Will it be audible?

I will give some context why I even consider such setup - I was always stereo listener - in music in mind. Recently I have moved to new house and I want to build decent stereo setup. This is the priority. However I also play a lot of games and watch movies/shows where I am sure that loud subwoofer and rear channels will add a lot of immersion and fun. However, in this case I don't really care about high quality - I just want something that will be playing. I even considered soundbar setup.

So I have read a lot of reviews and theory and it seemed that it will be hard to achieve both at the same time - there is no such equipment that is very good at stereo listening and is able do HT and doesn't cost a tons of money.

Requirements for stere is good/very good room correction - so propably only Dirac and Audyssey are possible in "normal" money. I don't know if I will go classic consumer speakers route or decide to use studio monitors. Still some listening session to attend. For now favourite is Polk L600/R700. And that's it for the stereo.

Taking this requirements and looking for HT device being able to achieve it - We have Denon 3700h - but there are questions if it will be able to play good enough and will have enough power for decent stereo columns (like mentioned Polks). And if I go studio monitor setup route, the problem is that Denon 3700h preouts have very high output impedance.

On the other hand separate HT system will cost much less because I think that setup consisting of Denon 1700h and some Heco Aurora speakers will be enough for me. It will cost around 3k $/€. And I will be able to buy separate stereo speakers with sub and some Dirac enabled device with state of the art performance.

If You have any other idea let me know - maybe Denon 3700 route is not bad, I just think that there is a lot of things that can degrade sound quality (output impedance, we don't have measurments with room correction turned on etc.). But I had never HT amplituner so maybe I am wrong.

No switching cable etc. is considered as an option. HT solution has to be simple, so my wife will be able to turn on tv and enjoy it. Currently I have Adam Audio A7x where You have switch on each box to turn them on and my wife always use tv speakers because of that.

There is possible solution with switcher that i consider - there are nCore base amps with rca/xlr inputs. So I think that possiblity is to have them switched to rca all the time and using denon preouts. But for focused music listening sessions I can walk to both amps and turned them to xlr where I woul connect some Dirac enable device. Question is if it will be working because again high impedance of denon preouts. And there can be also problems with volume because of gain.

 

[makinao]

I don't see too much of a problem putting more than one set of speakers in a room. That's done countless recording studios. In many cases, you'll see a large pair in or out of soffits, a pair of bookshelf-sized nearfields, and a pair of auratones.

 

[Vacceo]

I also use my AVR for games and let´s be honest: once you play with good sound, you get spoiled. Doom Eternal with a good subwoofer and surround is an insane experience, games with excellent soundtracks (Final Fantasy VII Remake for example) shine in a good system.

That said, your user case points out at HDMI 2.1 as a requirement unless you play on PC (hence, you can route the video signal on DisplayPort and keep the sound on a separate HDMI). If that is the case, the selection gets restricted. Can you get good stereo quality out of an AVR/AVP? Absolutely! You have a review of your AVR in this forum by the very host, Amir. As you´ll read there, it´s not a bad device at all!

Let us know a little bit about the size of the room, because that will dictate the amount of power and the type of speakers you will require: it´s not the same to listen at a couple meters than at 5. For stereo, your Denon will provide 138 W at 8 ohm, depending on requirements that may or may not be enough for the space where it will be used.

All the above considered, I agree with many of the previous guys: get a single pair of speakers (and down the line, if you want to go for an atmos setup, more). If those speakers need extra power, it is possible to add a separate amp and connect it to the AVR. Of course, that is also possible with an active speaker. Issues of resonance aside, two pairs of stereo speakers may compromise positioning, and where you place them does make a difference. This may also sound trivial, but it may be an element to factor in: room integration. You´ll have to run wires and chances are you´ll want it tidy. The more speakers, the more effort to get it tidy.

 

[SlowCar]

I also use my AVR for games and let´s be honest: once you play with good sound, you get spoiled. Doom Eternal with a good subwoofer and surround is an insane experience, games with excellent soundtracks (Final Fantasy VII Remake for example) shine in a good system.

That said, your user case points out at HDMI 2.1 as a requirement unless you play on PC (hence, you can route the video signal on DisplayPort and keep the sound on a separate HDMI). If that is the case, the selection gets restricted. Can you get good stereo quality out of an AVR/AVP? Absolutely! You have a review of your AVR in this forum by the very host, Amir. As you´ll read there, it´s not a bad device at all!

Let us know a little bit about the size of the room, because that will dictate the amount of power and the type of speakers you will require: it´s not the same to listen at a couple meters than at 5. For stereo, your Denon will provide 138 W at 8 ohm, depending on requirements that may or may not be enough for the space where it will be used.

All the above considered, I agree with many of the previous guys: get a single pair of speakers (and down the line, if you want to go for an atmos setup, more). If those speakers need extra power, it is possible to add a separate amp and connect it to the AVR. Of course, that is also possible with an active speaker. Issues of resonance aside, two pairs of stereo speakers may compromise positioning, and where you place them does make a difference. This may also sound trivial, but it may be an element to factor in: room integration. You´ll have to run wires and chances are you´ll want it tidy. The more speakers, the more effort to get it tidy.

I play on all consoles - but I don't quiet get need of HDMI 2.1 - modern consoles can't output 4k 120fps anyway. Is there other advantage?

In case of Denon 3700 - I have mentioned it in the previous post and there are some doubts about performance.

Room is around 27 sqm - I will be sitting around 3 meters away from speakers. I want 3 way speakers for stereo for sure - considering Polk R700/L600 or some studio monitors like Neumann KH310 or some Focals. Maybe something new will come during listening sessions.

 

[delta76]

I play on all consoles - but I don't quiet get need of HDMI 2.1 - modern consoles can't output 4k 120fps anyway. Is there other advantage?

In case of Denon 3700 - I have mentioned it in the previous post and there are some doubts about performance.

Room is around 27 sqm - I will be sitting around 3 meters away from speakers. I want 3 way speakers for stereo for sure - considering Polk R700/L600 or some studio monitors like Neumann KH310 or some Focals. Maybe something new will come during listening sessions.

yes, VRR, ALLM to name a few. HDMI 2.1 is a must on XSX/PS5 because that's where you get your money worth. many games fluctuate around 50-60fps and VRR comes to rescue.

and yes they can output 4k120. less demanding games can run at that resolution and people said it's a godsend

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

So I have read a lot of reviews and theory and it seemed that it will be hard to achieve both at the same time - there is no such equipment that is very good at stereo listening and is able do HT and doesn't cost a tons of money.

All of this is false. If you can afford Neumann KH310, it will beat the crap out of any similarly priced HT or Hi-Fi loudspeakers, even not counting the price of the amplifier for them.

the problem is that Denon 3700h preouts have very high output impedance.

Where did you find this data?

 

[SlowCar]

yes, VRR, ALLM to name a few. HDMI 2.1 is a must on XSX/PS5 because that's where you get your money worth. many games fluctuate around 50-60fps and VRR comes to rescue.

and yes they can output 4k120. less demanding games can run at that resolution and people said it's a godsend

Are You sure that VRR and ALLM are HDMI 2.1 only features? I thought otherwise - do You have any source on this, or can say it's 100% legitimate. Because if it is true than the only sensible option will be Denon 1700 which has 3 HDMI 2.1 inputs (let's say that nintendo switch doesn't need one).

All of this is false. If you can afford Neumann KH310, it will beat the crap out of any similarly priced HT or Hi-Fi loudspeakers, even not counting the price of the amplifier for them.


Where did you find this data?

I don't think it's false. I don't know any of AVR that comes close in terms of performance to dirac/class D setup. I wasn't talking about the speakers - I have stated it more clearly in recent post.
Data is in Denon 3700 topic - look for impedance.

 

[delta76]

All of this is false. If you can afford Neumann KH310, it will beat the crap out of any similarly priced HT or Hi-Fi loudspeakers, even not counting the price of the amplifier for them.

exactly this. a good speaker is a good speaker. For HT, it's simply about more channel (center, surround, heights) and that's it. People usually go to cheap speakers like Klipsch for HT because they are cheap, and you usually don't need accurate response as with critical listening. But nothing prevents you from using high quality Hi-Fi speakers for HT. They will definitely sound better

Are You sure that VRR and ALLM are HDMI 2.1 only features? I thought otherwise - do You have any source on this, or can say it's 100% legitimate. Because if it is true than the only sensible option will be Denon 1700 which has 3 HDMI 2.1 inputs (let's say that nintendo switch doesn't need one).



I don't think it's false. I don't know any of AVR that comes close in terms of performance to dirac/class D setup. I wasn't talking about the speakers - I have stated it more clearly in recent post.
Data is in Denon 3700 topic - look for impedance.

Yes I am sure https://hdmiforum.org/specifications/#:~:text=HDMI® Specification HDMI 2.1,is increased up to 48Gbps.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I was always stereo listener - in music in mind. Recently I have moved to new house and I want to build decent stereo setup. This is the priority.

Thank you for describing what the end game is, since stereo is your priority, that is where you start. Good stereo is achieved mostly with judicious speaker placement and where you sit in the room. Your Denon 3700H is perfectly able to produce excellent stereo with any decent set of speakers.

Requirements for stereo is good/very good room correction

Your room, may or may not require extra attention in the acoustic department, but if well furnished and big enough, you might not need much.
The main challenge with a stereo set up is that the ''sweet spot'' is usually limited to one person. That is where Multi Channel is interesting. So adding the extra speakers, sub, C, RL , RR, to your original stereo set up will add the functionality for gaming and movies.
Duplicating the FR and FL speaker, will add nothing good to the sauce, only limitations.

 

[SlowCar]

exactly this. a good speaker is a good speaker. For HT, it's simply about more channel (center, surround, heights) and that's it. People usually go to cheap speakers like Klipsch for HT because they are cheap, and you usually don't need accurate response as with critical listening. But nothing prevents you from using high quality Hi-Fi speakers for HT. They will definitely sound better

Yes I am sure https://hdmiforum.org/specifications/#:~:text=HDMI® Specification HDMI 2.1,is increased up to 48Gbps.

I have lookend a little bit more for information and it seems that some of the HDMI 2.0b devices are supporting it - but it is nothing standard etc. So You are right - then I have to rethink avr since I need 3 HDMI with VRR ALLM