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tweeters, impulse response, transients

tomtoo

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Hi, i need some help pls.
Has someone a good free read about this?
Could/Should be technical but without to much math.

Edit: I have so many questions that a read would be great. If it not opens more questions. ;)
 
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OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

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Thanks for the answers both nice reads.
But i search for something like this(just found)

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1166317

But not from 1961 more modern but closely related to the abstract.

"....The curves indicate a correlation exists between a speaker's steady-state frequency response and its transient performance. It was found that little correlation exists between the transient performance of a loudspeaker and musical listening tests..."

Thats what i'am interested in. If a speaker has a higher FR it should perform better at transients but how do we percieve it?
Is it enough if a speaker goes to 25khz or 80khz are realy better?
Iam a speaker idiot and like to understand this better.
 
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bennybbbx

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the best speaker in transient response i read are manger speakers. they do new models (active monitor too) that cost over 10000$. but have somebody hear if they really sound better ?
 

Bobthebuilder

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Thanks for the answers both nice reads.
But i search for something like this(just found)

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1166317

But not from 1961 more modern but closely related to the abstract.

"....The curves indicate a correlation exists between a speaker's steady-state frequency response and its transient performance. It was found that little correlation exists between the transient performance of a loudspeaker and musical listening tests..."

Thats what i'am interested in. If a speaker has a higher FR it should perform better at transients but how do we percieve it?
Is it enough if a speaker goes to 25khz or 80khz are realy better?
Iam a speaker idiot and like to understand this better.

No one searching for answers and asking for help finding those answers is an idiot. You are in good company my friend.

If you have a question that you aren't sure about
research it
test your findings
and remain open minded and unbias to the results

it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong at that point: you are a scientist

Blindly assuming you already have all the answers, that would be an idiot ;)

Good luck on your learning :)
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

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Bump!
I like too bump this. Wish english would be my motherlanguage that would make things much more easy.

So to keep it easy for me i make a statment and sciene should proof me wrong ok?
We talk about the transients of a cymbal and only about tweeters ok?

So i say to get the transients of a cymbal right, your tweeters FR has to go far over the frequencies you can hear.
Argument:
Each tweeter needs time to follow the Signal. If the tweeter goes higher in FR it follows signals better.
And that you can here in impulslike signals.

So scientists whats your opinion?
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

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Bump!
Looks like there is no real answer? So as a little fish i have to swim between snakeoil sellers that want to sell me
80khz+ tweeters?
 

DonH56

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Chances are few have researched and written papers on such a subject. Certainly I have not. Rather than the IEEE, I'd look to the AES. JJ has a series of articles there that are free, and you can join and dig deeper into their library.

IMO what we hear as "transients" is not rooted in the tweeters but much lower in the upper midrange through upper bass. The pound of a drum and snap of a cymbal that hits us in the chest is not above 20 kHz; not even above 10 kHz, but from a few hundred Hz to maybe 3-5 kHz. The very highest tinkle of a triangle or cymbal may exceed 10 kHz but the part we hear as "snap" and "sizzle" of transient attacks is lower in frequency.

Having tweeters with response well above audio helps reduce their in-band distortion, to a point, but much of audio marketing seems based on overkill, sometimes way overkill. If 80 kHz is good, why not use ultrasonic radiators that reach to several MHz? At some point it just become ridiculous, or rather marketing to the masses.

FWIWFM - Don
 

Lorenzo74

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the best speaker in transient response i read are manger speakers. they do new models (active monitor too) that cost over 10000$. but have somebody hear if they really sound better ?

stereophile recently review manger.
I don’t recall any comment on their performance in the “transient response”.
However from measurements it seems more flaws than highs... not Recommended indeed.
my Best
L.
 

Lorenzo74

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Bump!
Looks like there is no real answer? So as a little fish i have to swim between snakeoil sellers that want to sell me
80khz+ tweeters?

check your own audio freq Response (ears) and you’ll soon realize that 20kHz is beyond audibility unless you are teenager before any Disco experience.
Tweeter performance are typically evaluated by many parameters.
to me rule of thumb is
Wide dispersion (small diaphram) and low Fs (large diaphram).
To me the “best” today, and here I welcome everyone are Bliesma 34 or 25 And Viawave SRT.
Check: hificompass and Troels Gravensen.
The rest are great, SP ellipticor, SB acoustic,... but followers.
My BestL.
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

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Chances are few have researched and written papers on such a subject. Certainly I have not. Rather than the IEEE, I'd look to the AES. JJ has a series of articles there that are free, and you can join and dig deeper into their library.

IMO what we hear as "transients" is not rooted in the tweeters but much lower in the upper midrange through upper bass. The pound of a drum and snap of a cymbal that hits us in the chest is not above 20 kHz; not even above 10 kHz, but from a few hundred Hz to maybe 3-5 kHz. The very highest tinkle of a triangle or cymbal may exceed 10 kHz but the part we hear as "snap" and "sizzle" of transient attacks is lower in frequency.

Having tweeters with response well above audio helps reduce their in-band distortion, to a point, but much of audio marketing seems based on overkill, sometimes way overkill. If 80 kHz is good, why not use ultrasonic radiators that reach to several MHz? At some point it just become ridiculous, or rather marketing to the masses.

FWIWFM - Don

I like your answer, couse it's what i think. But you know, we love science ;) and a in deep explenation from a science view, i not got.
 
OP
tomtoo

tomtoo

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check your own audio freq Response (ears) and you’ll soon realize that 20kHz is beyond audibility unless you are teenager before any Disco experience.
Tweeter performance are typically evaluated by many parameters.
to me rule of thumb is
Wide dispersion (small diaphram) and low Fs (large diaphram).
To me the “best” today, and here I welcome everyone are Bliesma 34 or 25 And Viawave SRT.
Check: hificompass and Troels Gravensen.
The rest are great, SP ellipticor, SB acoustic,... but followers.
My BestL.

Yes it's clear i can hear only up to 15khz. But i can hear the impulse of a elektrostatic discharge. I learned thats a broadband signal. I accept, but what speakers i need to give that impulse as natural as possible to my ear?
 

March Audio

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A pertinent point to remember here is that all recordings are bandwidth limited. They are limited by the microphones, recording system and the recording bandwidth. 44kHz CD being of course 22kHz. So transients that are "faster" than this bandwidth aren't recorded - well only the their sub 22kHz content is. The rise time/slew rate of the transient cannot exceed that.

Then of course your ear is also a filter, you only hear up to 20kHz.

So unless a tweeter that has wider response offers improved in band performance as a by product, then there is no benefit.
 
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March Audio

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Yes it's clear i can hear only up to 15khz. But i can hear the impulse of a elektrostatic discharge. I learned thats a broadband signal. I accept, but what speakers i need to give that impulse as natural as possible to my ear?
You are only hearing the sub 15kHz noise. As you say it's a broadband signal. If the speaker replays that sub 20kHz content perfectly then you are good.

Also, as Don has already alluded to, "transients" such as drum hits and cymbals are very often lower in frequency than people imagine. Where they do have higher frequency content (above 20kHz) you can't hear it anyway.
 
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Hipper

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For what it's worth I wrote this for myself a few years ago. OK, I'll get shot for my subjective views but I thought it might be helpful:

+++++++++++++++

Isolation Experience

I followed the thinking in this article:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

In the end I used mostly Symposium products - Rollerblocks and shelves - under my gear and speakers.

When I was experimenting with this stuff I was listening for improved percussion. My thinking was that these are the most delicate sounds so any improvement in detail would show better isolation. I did find a tiny improvement using rollerblocks under my CD Transport and amp, but couldn't detect anything with them under the DAC and equaliser. Svelte shelves under the speakers did improve things too. At one point though I was getting tired of trying to pick out miniscule improvements and so just bunged on a CD and sat back to enjoy the music. What I then noticed was that it sounded a bit louder then usual - I know the exact volume to play each of my CDs - and in addition, things like rhythm guitar and piano sounded clearer. In fact this was exactly how Symposium describe the improvements to be gained from their gear. Ultimately it seems to be about 'less smeared transients', something I didn't really understand at the time:

'A musical note consists of '.... the attack, sustain, and decay of a sound. Attack transients consist of changes occurring before the sound reaches its steady-state intensity. Sustain refers to the steady state of a sound at its maximum intensity, and decay is the rate at which it fades to silence.' So the transient is the first thing you hear and is very noticeable on percussion (e.g. bongos), piano, and plucked guitar for example.

Each transient will consist of a number of frequencies (known as harmonics) and in order to get the proper effect they should be heard at pretty much the same time. In other words, when they reach your ears at your listening position they should ideally be heard together in one sharp ‘thud’. If these frequencies arrive spread out over time the transient is said to be ‘smeared‘. You don’t get that ’thud’ but a longer 'thudddd'.

I should add that I found a similar improvement with a better power supply but that all these benefits are small and expensive to get. They are the icing on the cake and should be the last part of the good listening puzzle. If I had my time again, the order of doing things would be:

1. Get good gear with sensible connections/cables.
2. Position speakers in the room with care to get the best sound.
3. Use room treatment to smooth out the influence of the room, with perhaps DSP/EQ to finish this job.
4. Look at racks, support shelves, feet.
5. Look at the source of electricity.

I found that the first three, especially 2 and 3, have the biggest impact on the sound - the proverbial night and day! Until you get this right it's not worth spending money on the rest. Even buying upgrades on your gear should take second place to 2 and 3.

Once you have extracted the best performance from 2 and 3, you can consider 4 and 5. These have different and much more subtle effects. I have to admit that spending thousands on this is probably not justified, although I did!

+++++++++++++++++++

Anyway, it seems to me that if you want more accurate, sharper, transients, you should aim for all the harmonic frequencies of the note to be heard at the same time. In the first instance that means preventing lots of reflections in the room so reducing decay times. My solution - copious amounts of room treatment plus EQ.
 
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