Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[Vacceo]

Have ya heard Kraftwerk - The Catalogue Blu-Ray?
I give it a spin every couple of weeks or so.
Incredible sounding Atmos, 5.1, 7.1 mixes, etc.
This is what their compositions was made for.

Kraftwerk: 3-D The Catalogue (in Dolby Atmos) - Blu-ray Forum

Kraftwerk: 3-D The Catalogue (in Dolby Atmos) Blu-ray Music and High Quality Music

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I have the classic Kfraftwerk, Kraftwerk 2 and Autobhan. The last one in vynil and CD, hence the comparison.

Thanks for the recomendation, those guys in Atmos must be amazing!

Damn, you just made me yearn to upgrade my current system even more than before...

 

[Robin L]

A lot of folks don't consider their supporting gear either. When I had idlers I never had an issue with rumble when I had a phono stage and amps with fair LF roll-off, and small full-range speakers. After upgrading to gear that went down to near DC and speakers with 4 10" OB woofers, everything happily danced across the floor.

When I was having a good LP experience with the Strathclyde/Scott 299b system, the turntable itself had a good build and very low rumble, the speakers cut off anything below 50 hz anyway. Rock records and orchestral recordings didn't do so well with my tubes and vinyl system. There was always more "rumble" from the discs than the turntable, but the synergy/euphonic distortion worked really well with a particular type of music and particular types of pressings. A UK or German pressing of Sinatra's mid-fifties material isn't necessarily going to be better than the USA original---usually worse on account of the foreign pressing being mastered from second-generation tapes. Like so many other things related to LPs, it really depends on the particulars.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Thanks for the recomendation, those guys in Atmos must be amazing!
Damn, you just made me yearn to upgrade my current system even more than before...

Listen to this to get an idea:

I recommend to turn the volume to 11

But ... it's Kraftwerk, even if the recording is bad, it's good:

I would drag my hand through a mile of cactuses, just to hear a new album from them through a walkie talkie ;-)
I wonder if the 3-D mixes are available on LP, and if they are i bet they still sound awesome.

Edit #1: They are! Ouch, right in the budget!

 

[Vacceo]

Listen to this to get an idea:

I recommend to turn the volume to 11

But ... it's Kraftwerk, even if the recording is bad, it's good:

Yep, this needs to be played on Atmos.

Too bad there are not mixes like that for DAF, Front Line Assembly, Skinny Puppy or Godflesh.

 

[billyjoebob]

I have to wonder how vinyl has harmed some people on this forum. I dislike tapes rather more, but even I can't bring my self to the level of vitriol some here have for vinyl.

Did a poorly anchored shelf full of records fall on them when they were a toddler or something?

I don't particularly like cassettes much myself, even though I still have alot.....but I don't seek out cassette forums to bash the people that do.
It makes no sense to me, other than stating my overly inflated opinion of myself.

 

[billyjoebob]

The one that comes from the very questionable recording methods of the original album. It was cleaned out on the CD remastering.

It is very evident in tracks such as Raining Blood from Slayer.

I'll take your word for it as I do not own that album on vinyl.
But 2 that I do own from that same year are metallica's master of puppets & maidens somewhere in time.
Neither of those suffer from what you are describing.

 

[Vacceo]

I'll take your word for it as I do not own that album on vinyl.
But 2 that I do own from that same year are metallica's master of puppets & maidens somewhere in time.
Neither of those suffer from what you are describing.

Maiden have always had a very, very good recording quality. Same goes for Metallica with the potential exception of Kill´em All, which I haven´t listened in original vynil form.

In the vynil from Reign in Blood i have, it is very, very easy to listen to a massive reverberation on Lombardo´s drum right after the storm sounds, and that is clearly the recording room playing drums, not Lombardo. That is absent (or at least, very toned down) on the CD.
To give you a comparison with drums that may sound similar, you don´t get that reverberation on South of Heaven.

Do I like that distorted sound? Yes! The smile it gets me only compares to the one I get with the heavily distorted, inverted and slowed down Fidelio´s choir of prisoners (Winds of the Black Gods) at the very begining of Blasphemy´s Fallen Angel of Doom.

 

[sq225917]

I never queued up to buy a cd I queued up to by loafs of records in my youth. Cd democratized music, and in a boring way took the magic out of music. If cd players has all been built like the 47 labs flatfish, or if they'd all been open transport and required special handling like fragile records do then maybe we'd feel more invested in the as objects like we do with vinyl.

It only very occasionally sounds better than the cd of the same album. Most people like it for the object, the artifact, and get swept up in that part of it and don't have the clarity to see why they like it above cd or files.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Too bad there are not mixes like that for DAF, Front Line Assembly, Skinny Puppy or Godflesh.

I know some of those from back in the day. Never heard about Godflesh.

I'm not sure how those mixes usually are produced.
Is it just upmixing a stereo signal or do you really need the master tapes for the instruments/tracks to place them in the object oriented space?

 

[Vacceo]

I know some of those from back in the day. Never heard about Godflesh.

I'm not sure how those mixes usually are produced.
Is it just upmixing a stereo signal or do you really need the master tapes for the instruments/tracks to place them in the object oriented space?

Godflesh are the grandpas of British Industrial Rock. They are among the most influential bands along with names such as Fear Factory or Ministry. Godflesh emerged from a guy who played in Napalm Death, but he shifted to a far more atmospheric, thick and ambiental sound. It is quite bass heavy and distorted, but due to how well the wall of sound fits, I think it could be an interesting experience to listen to it in a "bubble of sound".

 

[rwortman]

I have to wonder how vinyl has harmed some people on this forum. I dislike tapes rather more, but even I can't bring my self to the level of vitriol some here have for vinyl.

Did a poorly anchored shelf full of records fall on them when they were a toddler or something?

I suspect some of it is posturing. I show that I am a true science oriented audiophile by how much I hate legacy formats.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Godflesh are the grandpas of British Industrial Rock.

Good stuff. Getting a copy for my cat via TPB right now.

 

[anmpr1]

1) What about the wow, flutter, and other speed abnormalities on piano recordings, do you hear them? 2) Most every recording engineer I've read or talked to found Digital a Godsent for them.

1) I don't think I can recall hearing flutter on any of my turntables, going back to my early synchronous Garrard decks. Or belt drive machines (AR and Thorens). Certainly not with servo direct drive, and definitely not with quartz PLL DD.

Interestingly, I notice speed drift (but not wow or flutter) on my mechanical idler-driven record player from 1970, but I am only aware of it because in single play mode the strobe drifts a bit over the course of the record. In changer mode, with two discs on the platter, drift is more noticeable. I presume this is due to the way the idler 'slips' or moves up or down on the tapered brass motor spindle (that is how the deck offers speed variation). However, the drift is slow, and I do not perceive it as a pitch change over the course of the record. Possibly someone with perfect pitch would notice. On a servo or quartz DD turntable this sort of drift would not likely ever be an issue.

2) Your point about digital is well taken, but perhaps different for the recording engineer, as opposed to the home record player listener. For analog production, high speed open reel tape was used (discounting the not often seen direct to disc recordings). Perhaps flutter was/is an issue for them, with certain tape machines. Obviously this is cured by digits. However, my records cut from analog tapes don't show audible wow/flutter, so whatever the engineers were doing to attack this problem (if it was a problem) worked.

That said, I have heard speed variations on many consumer grade open reel tape decks, especially at low speed (3 ips), and especially if the tape is old, prone to sticking. This would not be an issue in the studio. Generally, with consumer open reel, at 7 ips I never heard any speed problems, unless the deck started to malfunction, which happened more than I'd like to have ever experienced. All my decks eventually needed some kind of service, whether they were from Teac, Akai, Pioneer, or even the more expensive ReVox (A and B77).

Toward the end of the consumer open reel scene, the higher-end Technics decks featured quartz PLL direct drive motors, with closed loop dual capstan tape path. My guess is they were likely the best of the bunch, as far as speed stability went, but I never owned anything like that.

 

[Robin L]

1) I don't think I can recall hearing flutter on any of my turntables, going back to my early synchronous Garrard decks. Or belt drive machines (AR and Thorens). Certainly not with servo direct drive, and definitely not with quartz PLL DD.

Interestingly, I notice speed drift (but not wow or flutter) on my mechanical idler-driven record player from 1970, but I am only aware of it because in single play mode the strobe drifts a bit over the course of the record. In changer mode, with two discs on the platter, drift is more noticeable. I presume this is due to the way the idler 'slips' or moves up or down on the tapered brass motor spindle (that is how the deck offers speed variation). However, the drift is slow, and I do not perceive it as a pitch change over the course of the record. Possibly someone with perfect pitch would notice. On a servo or quartz DD turntable this sort of drift would not likely ever be an issue.

2) Your point about digital is well taken, but perhaps different for the recording engineer, as opposed to the home record player listener. For analog production, high speed open reel tape was used (discounting the not often seen direct to disc recordings). Perhaps flutter was/is an issue for them, with certain tape machines. Obviously this is cured by digits. However, my records cut from analog tapes don't show audible wow/flutter, so whatever the engineers were doing to attack this problem (if it was a problem) worked.

That said, I have heard speed variations on many consumer grade open reel tape decks, especially at low speed (3 ips), and especially if the tape is old, prone to sticking. This would not be an issue in the studio. Generally, with consumer open reel, at 7 ips I never heard any speed problems, unless the deck started to malfunction, which happened more than I'd like to have ever experienced. All my decks eventually needed some kind of service, whether they were from Teac, Akai, Pioneer, or even the more expensive ReVox (A and B77).

Toward the end of the consumer open reel scene, the higher-end Technics decks featured quartz PLL direct drive motors, with closed loop dual capstan tape path. My guess is they were likely the best of the bunch, as far as speed stability went, but I never owned anything like that.

I, on the other hand, heard some sort of w/f artifact on every single turntable I've owned. I suspect some folk are more sensitive to this than others, but I'd always heard the eccentric discs, the peak warp wow followed by resonant oscillations twixt the arm and elastic suspension of the cantilever of the cartridge, every little bit of speed variation ground out by idler or belt. Which I guess is my biggest single rant---if you don't care about pitch then what's the point of audio? And that's the reason I've out for the count with any spinning analog audio disc, now and forever.

 

[anmpr1]

I suspect I have listened to many rim-drive turntables. All the recent ones I've used had audible levels of rumble, the belt drive 'tables had less, the direct-drive tables I've heard had the least.

Agreed. It's the low level grunge that is noticeable for me, and not speed variation. In my '70s system, idler drive produces so much that the woofers on visibly pump, to the point that I'm thinking damage will happen. With DD, it's not nearly as noticeable.

My stand alone RIAA pre doesn't have any kind of subsonic filter, so the amplifier sends everything to the speaker. In order to fix it, I inserted a dbx 215 EQ I had lying around, which has a 50Hz 12dB/octave low cut, and that totally solves the problem.

Now, one could say that a 50Hz filter is pretty radical, but my response is that it's records, and there's not much down there to begin with, and my 'bookshelf' speakers are boomy. You do what you have to, and use what you have available.

 

[levimax]

I, on the other hand, heard some sort of w/f artifact on every single turntable I've owned. I suspect some folk are more sensitive to this than others, but I'd always heard the eccentric discs, the peak warp wow followed by resonant oscillations twixt the arm and elastic suspension of the cantilever of the cartridge, every little bit of speed variation ground out by idler or belt. Which I guess is my biggest single rant---if you don't care about pitch then what's the point of audio? And that's the reason I've out for the count with any spinning analog audio disc, now and forever.

No doubt off center and warped records have audible wow and flutter but a DD TT has less speed deviation than the tape machines used to make the master tapes. On my DD TT I don't hear any speed variation on flat and centered records which most of my records are.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Now, one could say that a 50Hz filter is pretty radical, but my response is that it's records, and there's not much down there to begin with,

You take that back. NOW!

Back in the day we had rumble filter in the amp. We also lost variable loudness, pre-out/main-in and rec-select to the audiophile gods.
Sucks.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello friends,

For your reference, I posted on my project thread;
- Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
DENON DP-57L + DENON DL-301 II (MC);

 

[Digby]

A very handsome turntable @dualazmak

 

[RCAguy]

Why still have a turntable? Above are many of rhe reasons. I’ll add that 140yr of recorded history are on records, but most are not in digital form. Much of the growing digital library is by restorers (like me) from these disks when no usable tape is available. Conservator level alignment tools, stylus choices, wear v audio performance considerations, proper cartridge loading, maker instructions for the preamp and transcription tonearms I use are in my Phonograph book 2nd ed, newly available - see http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm