Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[dualazmak]

Sony's revived vinyl LP production factory

Even though I assume we have many similar articles/reports on recently opened renovated and/or revived vinyl LP production facilities, let me share with you the following two reports just for reference; I do hope your web browser would properly translate these interesting (at least for me) reports into English;

"I saw the revived Sony record production site. 'How to make with the equipment of the 70's and the latest technology?"
https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/dal/1087493.html

"I saw Sony's revived record production factory for the first time in 29 years. What kind of analog can be made now?"
https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1122226.html

You would please note, however, I myself have little intention of bringing many vinyl LPs onto the recently revived DENON TT DP-57L + DL-301II (MC) in my software DSP-based multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system, as I wrote here on my project thread.

 

[EJ3]

Yes. we can seem a bit mean to each other when we (while being serious) are just "funnin'" with each other, as we have been around here a while and developed a relationship with each other that allows us to "agree to disagree" and it's OK.. Sometimes, when people come here that haven't been exposed to us before, they think (and from what little they have seen of our output here, rightly so) that we are in a a knock down, drag out fight with each other. But, as they linger around here longer, they will see that we know where and on what each other stands and can still be friendly enough to have a little fun at each others expense (at least that's the initial impression from the outside). But it's because we know and respect each other, that we can do that with each other. And still get along just fine.

 

[egellings]

It's all digital really.
In the US our power grid runs at 60hz and everything in our HiFi's gets chopped up into 60 cps pieces
as the power cycles through it's ups and downs.
If you run your TT at 33 while playing a 78 disc you can hear this as a shuddering of the soundstage.
It's true, if your system is resolving enough or your ears well trained you can hear the effects.

If that's the case, then your TT is broken. Capacitors in electronics and flywheel effect in turntables both do the same thing; remove ripple variation in voltage / speed using energy storage if the ripple is not too large.

 

[Sal1950]

If that's the case, then your TT is broken. Capacitors in electronics and flywheel effect in turntables both do the same thing; remove ripple variation in voltage / speed using energy storage if the ripple is not too large.

Oh brother.

 

[JP]

 

[egellings]

Oh brother.

???...

 

[dkinric]

Obviously, Sal, your flux capacitor is causing ripple variations that your flywheel can't remove. No wonder you don't care for vinyl.

 

[guycalledfrank]

I am a vinyl guy even though I use digital sources as well. I run an OPTICAL cartridge: the DS Audio DS 003 because I do believe in science and an optical cartridge makes the vinyl music reproduction less faulty. Because truth is: digital is superior to vinyl IF every other factor is the same. I still think vinyl has its advantages and in some cases even sonically! Here are my reasons for vinyl records:

1 Mastering optimized for medium:

Schellack, Vinyl, Tape, CD, Mp3, Lossless have different masterings for specific medium attributes make it sound different. And quite often the person mixing for vinyl is by far more experienced than the guy for the digital mix. That’s why f.e. some Kevin Gray mixed vinyl records sound better than the digital release.

2 Availability:

Lots of records (f.e. 60ies Jazz or 90ies electronic music) are not available digitally, while vinyl records often have a variety of different masterings & pressings. So sometimes it’s not just the lack of digital releases, sometimes the master tapes / the original source is long gone and the only available thing is a vinyl record release in Near Mint from 1965…so sonically digital won’t be able to beat that as you can only sample what is left.

3 Haptic/surface feel:

Physical medium for physical people, satisfaction of sensors, f.e. flip records in a recordstore vs. browsing online. After all to me touching a girl is nicer than just looking at fotos

4 Visual:

Coversize, print vs. electronic display
Holding a Vinyl Cover Art is surely more pleasant than watching a screen

5 Scent: vinyl records smell nicer than CDs and digital files!

6 Ritual:

Place the record on turntable, spin it, remove dust, lower the cartridge/drop the needle, etc. comparison to campfire or sleeping rituals. Rituals played an important role in human development and the development of our societies and social interaction hence they help our body & mind.

7 Album format:

Artists‘ aspect, respect for artists’ creation, songs grow while listening, songs need to be played next to each other

8 Analogue music quality vs. digital:

There is lot of argument about what is „superior“ sonically. But without doubt there are differences. So it’s a matter of preference even though digital is more „correct“ in the sense of true to the source. But that might not be pleasant to everyone‘s ears. Science has proven that some artifacts make the listening experience more pleasant to some of us. Personally I f.e. enjoy warmer sonics quite often, even though that’s not audiophile in the true sense

 

[MRC01]

... Personally I f.e. enjoy warmer sonics quite often, even though that’s not audiophile in the true sense

I listened to vinyl for decades and in direct comparison with CD, I wouldn't say that vinyl is warmer. To me, in most cases the LP sounded brighter & thinner than the CD. Of course depending on the recording.

 

[guycalledfrank]

I listened to vinyl for decades and in direct comparison with CD, I wouldn't say that vinyl is warmer. To me, in most cases the LP sounded brighter & thinner than the CD. Of course depending on the recording.

hmm, I think I agree. That might be reason for my preference with amps that tend to be on the warmer side: it balances it out a bit. Of course all this is not „audiophile“ but to please my sonic preferences!

 

[Sal1950]

Vinyl,
A totally obsolete, widely technically inferior, hugely inconvenient, a big PITA to use, and completely irrelevant as a High Fidelity musical medium for the last 50 years. If that sounds like fun to you, enjoy.

Don't worry, call a digital source.

 

[Natchie]

I am a vinyl guy even though I use digital sources as well. I run an OPTICAL cartridge: the DS Audio DS 003 because I do believe in science and an optical cartridge makes the vinyl music reproduction less faulty. Because truth is: digital is superior to vinyl IF every other factor is the same. I still think vinyl has its advantages and in some cases even sonically! Here are my reasons for vinyl records:

1 Mastering optimized for medium:

Schellack, Vinyl, Tape, CD, Mp3, Lossless have different masterings for specific medium attributes make it sound different. And quite often the person mixing for vinyl is by far more experienced than the guy for the digital mix. That’s why f.e. some Kevin Gray mixed vinyl records sound better than the digital release.

2 Availability:

Lots of records (f.e. 60ies Jazz or 90ies electronic music) are not available digitally, while vinyl records often have a variety of different masterings & pressings. So sometimes it’s not just the lack of digital releases, sometimes the master tapes / the original source is long gone and the only available thing is a vinyl record release in Near Mint from 1965…so sonically digital won’t be able to beat that as you can only sample what is left.

For me, reason number 2 is probably the most significant one. If given a choice to listen to a vinyl album vs CD of a same title, I'll go to the vinyl. Paul Winter Consort's Icarus is phenomenally superior. I believe also that the bass track on CD, in general, has been boosted to a much higher level of volume, dominating the rest of the frequency range. Another reason to prefer vinyl as originally mastered.

 

[Sal1950]

I believe also that the bass track on CD, in general, has been boosted to a much higher level of volume, dominating the rest of the frequency range. Another reason to prefer vinyl as originally mastered.

Nope, the bass on the CD is mostly made accurate to the master tape.
Bass for vinyl has to be heavily modified to keep the needle in the groove and keep it from destroying the pressed in info.

Vinyl Mastering

Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.

www.gottagrooverecords.com

 

[RCAguy]

3+ things: 1) Vinyl may sound "warmer" because, to avoid groove hopping, all LF <150~250Hz is mixed to mono (both channels), in many cases giving LF a 3dB boost by exciting both woofers. 2) The pickup (cartridge) is only as good as its stylus, where the tip shape is most responsible for distortion, caused by groove wall mis-tracing. 3) "Vinyl" (& shellac) contain a whole century of recorded history prior to anything digital, and often source that digital content. 4) Pardon my offering my Phonograph book as a multi-5-star illustrated "master class" on the science of "vinyl" reproduction - now also an e-book.

 

[Sal1950]

1) Vinyl may sound "warmer" because, to avoid groove hopping, all LF <150~250Hz is mixed to mono (both channels), in many cases giving LF a 3dB boost by exciting both woofers.

Just to add that there is a stone wall limit to how loud the bass can be recorded before it creates catastrophes in tracking, groove damage, etc.
And that stone wall level becomes ever lower as the needle approaches the center grooves.

Personally I've never run into a recording of music I want available on my system that isn't available in some digital media.
YMMV

 

[ribonucleic]

Vinyl, A totally obsolete, widely technically inferior, hugely inconvenient, a big PITA to use, and completely irrelevant as a High Fidelity musical medium for the last 50 years.

I can see how it might be an exotic novelty to young 'uns who had never owned music in a tangible form before. And we did lose something when album art stopped being important. But, man, you couldn't pay me to go back.

I'm always amused to think of aliens finding the Voyager Record and wondering why a species capable of launching an object into interstellar space couldn't think of a better way to reproduce sound than dragging something pointy across a grooved surface.

 

[RCAguy]

Just to add that there is a stone wall limit to how loud the bass can be recorded before it creates catastrophes in tracking, groove damage, etc.
And that stone wall level becomes ever lower as the needle approaches the center grooves.

Personally I've never run into a recording of music I want available on my system that isn't available in some digital media.
YMMV

I agree, inferring the fact that a lot of excellent historic content has yet to be transferred to digital. But digital's "stone wall," clipping up to 4% of samples, is SOP on many popular releases.

 

[Sal1950]

But digital's "stone wall," clipping up to 4% of samples, is SOP on many popular releases.

A sad bit of mastering foolishness.
The good news is it's mostly fading into history with a large number of engineers waking up.
Also I've yet to see any multich recordings being submitted to the heavy compression hand.
There is the issue that some of todays popular music is intended to sound that way by the
artists and will never go away. Personally I can't listen to that stuff but each to their own.

 

[RCAguy]

A sad bit of mastering foolishness.
The good news is it's mostly fading into history with a large number of engineers waking up.
Also I've yet to see any multich recordings being submitted to the heavy compression hand.
There is the issue that some of todays popular music is intended to sound that way by the
artists and will never go away. Personally I can't listen to that stuff but each to their own.

The 4% edict was handed to engineers by management. And my Fleetwood Mac
Rumours 5.1 AudioDisc is highly over-compressed.

 

[RCAguy]

The 4% edict was handed to engineers by management. And my Fleetwood Mac
Rumours 5.1 AudioDisc is highly over-compressed, possibly masking clipping (I haven't scoped it).