Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[watchnerd]

See, the thing is I don't trust that people at Rega have made an effort to figure that out and it correctly. Technics, Sony (and probably a few others) make their plinths out BMC (bulk molding compound—the Sony Biotracer tables are even supposed to be made of a special variety that as low "Q" value or something). Rega can't even make a table that spins at 33.33rpm. Even the models I think are expensive (like P6 which is like $1200 CAD) purportedly have speed problems. There is whole business dedicated to Rega "upgrades" which people buy. I don't what percentage of tables are "off" with respect to speed, but there are a lot of user reports (and solutions of varying levels of "kludge") on issue. Some people even think that Rega makes their tables "fast" on purpose to give them a specific sound.

I feel like the chances of Rega implementing this competently are pretty low. They don't even have official measurements (or do reveal them) on their tables.

I wasn't totally sure about whether the concept was sound. I attempted to look into the vibration reducing mechanisms for scientific instruments. There is some complicated stuff going on. The simplest among them was a (presumably very fancy) rubber mat. Although I feel you can have the fanciest structure for you plinth, but how much of a difference is it going to make when you have a thing that spins at a reasonably high frequency (motor) right next to your platter connected by a rubber band that also can also potentially vibrate? I don't know the answer and every article with respect to turntables seems be dedicated to disparaging the direct drive.

I wasn't commenting Rega's implementation skills.

I'm just saying, theoretically and from a physics POV, there is more than one way to deal with the issues, and they're all compromises.

 

[Zerimas]

What I notice on my system is that simpler stylus shapes tend to have a little less detail (e.g. can I hear the pedals on a piano), less transient snap and shorter decay (I notice this most on plucked acoustic bass and guitars), and flatter imaging. These differences don't tend to show up easily in FR graphs....and making an LP with square waves or impulse responses is practically impossible, so it's pretty damn hard to measure

See, I've always wondered if this was more tied to effective mass of the generating element. I don't think I have any recordings (in decent condition anyway) that have the sort of stuff you're talking about. I do try and pay attention to things like snares and reverb. Though I have no idea how relevant that is to what are you discussing.

 

[watchnerd]

See, I've always wondered if this was more tied to effective mass of the generating element. I don't think I have any recordings (in decent condition anyway) that have the sort of stuff you're talking about. I do try and pay attention to things like snares and reverb. Though I have no idea how relevant that is to what are you discussing.

I think it's both the effective mass of the motor and the stylus shape.

The reason I know stylus shape has an impact is that I can put on two carts with the same motors, but different stylus shapes (or literally the same motor, but with different styli, in the case of some MMs with replaceable styli but the same motor, like the 2M Bronze vs Black), and hear the difference.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't think I have any recordings (in decent condition anyway) that have the sort of stuff you're talking about.

Well-recorded classical piano, with certain compositions, can be a good listening test:

 

[levimax]

I think it's both the effective mass of the motor and the stylus shape.

The reason I know stylus shape has an impact is that I can put on two carts with the same motors, but different stylus shapes (or literally the same motor, but with different styli, in the case of some MMs with replaceable styli but the same motor, like the 2M Bronze vs Black), and hear the difference.

I have tested the same motor with different stylus and gotten significantly different FR, see attached..... now whether it was stylus shape, cantilever material, or something else I don't know. I am not saying the stylus shape does not affect things but based on everything I have read on this forum I think FR is much more audible than other effects and that is the main driver of perceived differences in cartridges.

When I got the Denon 103r with the conical stylus I was expecting to be disappointed by the "primitive" conical stylus as the AT I used previously had a fancy line contact shape but that was not the case.

 

[watchnerd]

I have tested the same motor with different stylus and gotten significantly different FR, see attached..... now whether it was stylus shape, cantilever material, or something else I don't know. I am not saying the stylus shape does not affect things but based on everything I have read on this forum I think FR is much more audible than other effects and that is the main driver of perceived differences in cartridges.

Sure. I didn't mean to imply that changing stylus shape or cantilever didn't affect FR.

I would be more surprised if two different styli shapes had the same FR.

 

[watchnerd]

When I got the Denon 103r with the conical stylus I was expecting to be disappointed by the "primitive" conical stylus as the AT I used previously had a fancy line contact shape but that was not the case.

The limit of FR tests is that they usually don't challenge tracking capabilities.

I have a couple of test disks where the advanced styli tend to do much better on the hard test tracks than the simpler shapes.

 

[Zerimas]

Well-recorded classical piano, with certain compositions, can be a good listening test:

I've got a copy of Chick Corea & Nicolas Economou ‎– On Two Pianos, but is in garbage condition. I should probably get another one—or just buy the CD. Ah, but then I would have anything to test my turntable out with.

 

[ajawamnet]

The reason for the arm to be pulled in is the offset and stylus friction creates an inward force. The blank disc way of setting it was much proposed back in the day but is completely wrong. The stylus drag of the point of the stylus on a shiny disc is COMPLETELY different from the drag playing a modulated groove, which isn’t constant anyway.
I used to set it using a highly modulated recording using an oscilloscope when I worked for Garrard. A setting using the old way of using a blank disc is miles out. In fact it can only be spot on at one modulation level and diameter because the drag force changes all the time.
Having it wrong creates mistracking in one channel before the other at high modulations. Having none makes this worse and ends up with the force being reacted by the stylus suspension causing an offset in the magnetic circuit, probably reducing linearity.

How did you set up the o'scope?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Was it music or tones?

If music, do you recall what it was?

Music, but I don’t remember what.
It is a compromise anyway because the drag varies depending on modulation and where radius being played so it is a question of getting into the region as there is no “right”.

 

[MattHooper]

Music, but I don’t remember what.
It is a compromise anyway because the drag varies depending on modulation and where radius being played so it is a question of getting into the region as there is no “right”.

Out of curiosity: do you have a view on the debate over shorter vs longer tonearms: 9” vs 12” ?

 

[Wombat]

Nearly 900 posts. Sheesh.

Buy a turntable and use it. Upgrade if you will. Enjoy it or not. Everything has pretty well been said in this thread. Lots of vinyl insecurity self assurance apparent.

It is technically inferior to digital players but if it moves you, so be it. That's OK.

 

[watchnerd]

Nearly 900 posts. Sheesh.

Buy a turntable and use it. Upgrade if you will. Enjoy it or not. Everything has pretty well been said in this thread. Lots of vinyl insecurity self assurance apparent.

It is technically inferior to digital players but if it moves you, so be it. That's OK.

You killjoy.

I was just about to ask people's favorite alignment between Stevenson, Lofgren, Baeworld, UNI-DIN, or something else.

 

[Frank Dernie]

How did you set up the o'scope?

The two scope channels looked at the output of both cartridge channels of a mono LP.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Out of curiosity: do you have a view on the debate over shorter vs longer tonearms: 9” vs 12” ?

Like you and others have said it is a compromise. A 12” has less tracking error but (usually) a higher effective mass and lower first resonance mode. I would expect it, generally, to be better with a suitable cartridge but it is just a different combination of “wrongnesses” which an individual may prefer the effect of
I have 4 turntables and they all sound different. Two have parallel tracking arms and two pivoted. I gave up on LPs as my main source before 12” arms were around much so I have never used one. They may only have a real benefit playing masters which are so big in diameter they foul a 9”.
There is an almost endless list of ways in which LP playing is compromised but it can sound really nice if you get your own personal set of preferred colourations.
Bass is always wrong (but excessive and liked by many) below a frequency = 2x the arm/cartridge resonant frequency. All stylus shapes have shortcomings either because they are unable to accurately trace highest frequencies (conical) of very hard to set up accurately (most others).
The amount of spurious vibrations picked up by the sensing element in the cartridge varies enormously, as does its source, it can be mechanical and airborne pickup and mechanical resonance pickup both at the record surface or at the head shell - the two sides of the transducer motor.
Basically there is no “right” (or even better IMHO) it is just a question of which set of shortcomings the individual prefers the effect of.
A lot of people don’t like a rumble filter because they like the extra bass, even though it is very inaccurate. Personally I prefer the extra reverb effect one gets from an imperfectly isolated turntable.
The list goes on.
Remember you can spend a gazillions pounds on the record player and you will still be playing a disc which has had the signal recorded onto it modified, to a greater or lesser extent, to make the thing manufacturable.

 

[Soniclife]

I have 4 turntables and they all sound different.

Out of interest which 4 are they? And how would you describe the differences.

 

[Wombat]

You killjoy.

I was just about to ask people's favorite alignment between Stevenson, Lofgren, Baeworld, UNI-DIN, or something else.

Could be a bit overwhelming for the OP.

 

[Zog]

Lots of vinyl insecurity self assurance apparent.

Who is insecure Wombat?

 

[ajawamnet]

The two scope channels looked at the output of both cartridge channels of a mono LP.

Lissajous mode? When we saw tracking issues they'd manifest as a curl or change to the diagonal line... We'd have to use a high pass to get rid of the LF modulation caused by the table and resonance. That and most systems had so many other issues that it was difficult to discern tracking problems from things like poor compliance, bad suspensions, crap bearings etc... I always would check cantilever deflection to see if it appeared to struggle across the test records. Typically, the blank disc got me in the ballpark. We'd then use an HP 334A with a custom made 1kHz test record (7cm/sec if I recall) that we had made by a local pressing plant, but it was tough to set the notch perfectly depending on the wow of the UUT. The variance of the fundamental would make the meter bounce a bit so it was hard to get an absolute measurement.

But from my 10 years of experience of setting up some really expensive (and not necessarily good) to BIC belt drives at opus one, the blank disc got me close. We were the warranty station for Dual - god, I can't remember how many of those I fixed. We dealt with Thorens, etc... Also did a lot of broadcast engineering for stations in Pgh; and having tonearms skip due to poor tracking was not tolerated. Again the blank disc method seemed to work just fine for that.

 

[BDWoody]

I've got a copy of Chick Corea & Nicolas Economou ‎– On Two Pianos, but is in garbage condition. I should probably get another one—or just buy the CD. Ah, but then I would have anything to test my turntable out with.

I just picked up a mini-collection of about 300 albums, which has quite few by Chick Corea. I put one on the other day, and I have to say... Dude could play. I had heard of him, but don't think I ever gave a serious listen. I will be listening more.