Actually I just remembered that rumble figures as a whole maybe somewhat meaningless anyway. I think sometime during the 1970s they had to develop new devices and measurement techniques in order to quantify the rumble because using a test record to do so was pointless. Turntables had reached the point where they were quiet enough that simply using a test record didn't give useful results (the noise from the table was below that of the surface noise you'd get from just normally playing a record/the amount of noise present from the cutting process). Thorens invented a device called the Rumplemesskoppler just so they could get some measurements.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Turntables - help me understand the appeal?
- Thread starter dkinric
- Start date
Actually I just remembered that rumble figures as a whole maybe somewhat meaningless anyway. I think sometime during the 1970s they had to develop new devices and measurement techniques in order to quantify the rumble because using a test record to do so was pointless. Turntables had reached the point where they were quiet enough that simply using a test record didn't give useful results (the noise from the table was below that of the surface noise you'd get from just normally playing a record/the amount of noise present from the cutting process). Thorens invented a device called the Rumplemesskoppler just so they could get some measurements.
Recording studios in cities used to cut critical masters in the wee-hours to avoid environmental rumble. Once that type of rumble was recorded it was for keeps and the better turntables reproduced it more exactly.
Cool. I didn't think the rumble from the environment would be loud enough to affect the cutting the process. I mean the university I went to had a building with lots of vibration isolation and you weren't allowed to use the entrance during experiments (a light signifying "do not enter" was at the entrance). However the experiments being done there are quite literally on matters concerning things of nanoscopic scale. So I can see how even a little bit of vibration would cause problems.
I still have my last reel-to-reel recorder which I used up until going digital with DAT in the '90s. I still have loads of tapes. I only use it for the old recordings of long gone family members, not for music. I should digitise them and sell the Revox whilst it is in fashion again!
All vibration picked up at a frequency of less than ~2x the natural frequency of the arm/cartridge effective mass on the cartridge compliance is innaccurately reproduced, it is not a question of quality but physics. How inaccurately depends on the damping, more would be better in this area but it would also be slightly inferior in the audible band so usually minimised. I know somebody who added enough damping to his arm for his cartridge to reproduce 5Hz reasonably accurately, goodness knows how inaccurate it then was from 20Hz to the arm-tubes 1st mode!
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
You should. I just bought my 2nd PR-99 and will be picking it up this week.
I had a nice effect dome days ago. I did listen to a CD of Alan Parsons "Pyramid" which I owned as a teen on LP.
I have listened to it very often back then, along with "Tales of Mystery and Imagination".
When CD´s came out, my taste shifted to classical and jazz
I did buy the CD-versions of the LPs mentioned much later and but rarely
listened to them. All LPs were sold by the mid nineties
Well the funny thing about revisiting the Alan Parsons CD was - after, so to say, a 40 year hiatus:
I could easily remember where the scratches were!
So to say burned into my memory because I listened to this music very often before CDs came out
So, no appeal at all to me, especially when remembering this:
I did play the LPs using a fluid and spent money on expensíve "Metal Tape"
compact cassettes. There was the "Once wet, always wet" rule.
So no way to play them at smoeone elses house, especially for a party.
I also tried to copy the LP on the first run to prevent any dust to produce more clicking and crackling.
But never forgotten will the moment, when the father of a classmate did import a Hitachi DA-1000 from Japan
to Germany, so he could listen to CDs before their official release in Europe. Along with it came
Dire Straits "Love over Gold". I could just not believe the synthesizer coming up from total silence
(Ok, not really : When you pump up the volume, you hear a slight AC-hum that is already on the recording)
But this hum was never audible before because it was completely masked by the rumble and crackle on the LP.
So I got sold to digital for the rest of my life and sometimes record and mix myself.
To me, the appeal of the LP is simply watching it work and watch the mechanics involved.
Digital is almost completely missing this "Sex Appeal".
In the beginning, there was some players that displayed the compact disc, like the mentioned DA-1000
or the first Philips/Magnavox/Marantz.
But then 99% of all upcoming players used a drawer that did hide the CD after closing.
I think this was a big mistake...
I have listened to it very often back then, along with "Tales of Mystery and Imagination".
When CD´s came out, my taste shifted to classical and jazz
I did buy the CD-versions of the LPs mentioned much later and but rarely
listened to them. All LPs were sold by the mid nineties
Well the funny thing about revisiting the Alan Parsons CD was - after, so to say, a 40 year hiatus:
I could easily remember where the scratches were!
So to say burned into my memory because I listened to this music very often before CDs came out
So, no appeal at all to me, especially when remembering this:
I did play the LPs using a fluid and spent money on expensíve "Metal Tape"
compact cassettes. There was the "Once wet, always wet" rule.
So no way to play them at smoeone elses house, especially for a party.
I also tried to copy the LP on the first run to prevent any dust to produce more clicking and crackling.
But never forgotten will the moment, when the father of a classmate did import a Hitachi DA-1000 from Japan
to Germany, so he could listen to CDs before their official release in Europe. Along with it came
Dire Straits "Love over Gold". I could just not believe the synthesizer coming up from total silence
(Ok, not really : When you pump up the volume, you hear a slight AC-hum that is already on the recording)
But this hum was never audible before because it was completely masked by the rumble and crackle on the LP.
So I got sold to digital for the rest of my life and sometimes record and mix myself.
To me, the appeal of the LP is simply watching it work and watch the mechanics involved.
Digital is almost completely missing this "Sex Appeal".
In the beginning, there was some players that displayed the compact disc, like the mentioned DA-1000
or the first Philips/Magnavox/Marantz.
But then 99% of all upcoming players used a drawer that did hide the CD after closing.
I think this was a big mistake...
I’ve got belt, idler and direct drives, and am firmly in the latter camp. My Sony biotracers are astounding, and do all the things that my Linn can’t do, like play the right speed, constantly. Even better, they cost peanuts.
I’m slowly offloading the rest of my turntables. Just said goodbye to my Aiwa LP3000. Nice, but the Sony PSX555 linear tracker is better.
Of course, all of this is moot if you are chasing absolute sound quality. But I bought and inherited a bunch of records. If I were half my age I’d never look at vinyl.
I’m slowly offloading the rest of my turntables. Just said goodbye to my Aiwa LP3000. Nice, but the Sony PSX555 linear tracker is better.
Of course, all of this is moot if you are chasing absolute sound quality. But I bought and inherited a bunch of records. If I were half my age I’d never look at vinyl.
Midwest Blade
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2019
- Messages
- 401
- Likes
- 539
Back in the 80's I was a late convert to CD and held onto belief in the vinyl LP only to finally convert. Much to my fortune I have many of my old favorites on both mediums. While I still like to spin the odd LP my preference is 100% to the CD. But, and a big BUT, key to any of this is the quality of the recording and engineering that went into production of either the CD or the LP.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
I've never heard of the Biotracers until now.
I had always heard Technics referred to as the go-to for DD turntables.
You should hear that in the Alan Parsons remastered 5 .1 channel 24/96 BluRay.
Lightyears beyond draging a rock down a ditch.
Last edited:
Yes it is
At Garrard we bought two early Japanese DD turntables for measurement and evaluation, a Sony and a Technics SP10. I don't remember the Sony model number but it was their first and a pro unit which was v. expensive, like the Technics. They were better than anything else we had seen with the Sony being slightly the better.
When they had been stripped for costing they ended up in the stores and we bought them from the scrap man, my boss had the Sony and I had the Technics. All I had to do was rebuild it. I used it for years.
The Sony had a magnetic stripe on the inside of the platter rim and a tape head like item reading it, this derived the speed control signal. I was concerned with its long term reliability but its large diameter probably gave it the exceptional speed stability.
The fact that this "debate" still happens anywhere is utter madness.
1. Digital is objectively more accurate - greater resolution, dynamic range, channel separation
2. Many people subjectively enjoy the sound of vinyl
3. Many people enjoy other elements of playing vinyl: the record sleeves, the tactile nature of it, the fact that you're encouraged to listen to an entire album side at once
I don't think any of this is in dispute in 2019, is it?
(Of course, while the technical advantages of redbook audio over vinyl are enormous on paper, though somewhat less so in practice. Background noise in your listening room is surely at least 40dB so a lot of vinyl's flaws will not be particularly audible)
Anybody who pretends to "not understand" the appeal of vinyl is being disingenuous at best. Maybe it doesn't appeal to you in particular, but the pros and cons are pretty obvious. It's like claiming you don't understand the appeal of a sports car or puppies or hamburgers or something. Even if you don't like them, it does not require a large amount of mental effort to understand why some folks enjoy them!
My listening is at least 95% digital, so please don't think I'm posting this as a vinyl nut.
1. Digital is objectively more accurate - greater resolution, dynamic range, channel separation
2. Many people subjectively enjoy the sound of vinyl
3. Many people enjoy other elements of playing vinyl: the record sleeves, the tactile nature of it, the fact that you're encouraged to listen to an entire album side at once
I don't think any of this is in dispute in 2019, is it?
(Of course, while the technical advantages of redbook audio over vinyl are enormous on paper, though somewhat less so in practice. Background noise in your listening room is surely at least 40dB so a lot of vinyl's flaws will not be particularly audible)
Anybody who pretends to "not understand" the appeal of vinyl is being disingenuous at best. Maybe it doesn't appeal to you in particular, but the pros and cons are pretty obvious. It's like claiming you don't understand the appeal of a sports car or puppies or hamburgers or something. Even if you don't like them, it does not require a large amount of mental effort to understand why some folks enjoy them!
My listening is at least 95% digital, so please don't think I'm posting this as a vinyl nut.
Last edited:
The biotracer electronic arms can be a bit of a problem, although the problematic ones probably bit the dust decades ago.
But when working I think they are excellent.
And that’s on top of the quartz locked, speed stable direct drive.
The comparisons you make are out in left field.. An antique sports car, yea it's a cool TOY that you might enjoy entering in some vintage races but you would never consider racing a 60s sports car against modern iron. Etc etc etc.
If you except the LP as deserving of a place in a modern HiFi, what about Shellac mono 78s, lot's of guys LOVE em. Or 7" 45s, Edison cylinders, RTR tape, RTR wire, compact cassette, 8 track cartridges. etc. From a personal interest/preference point of view any of the pieces I mentioned above can be supported by those who hold them dear but ???? Beyond gear kept as oddities or toys, at what point is a technology no longer deserving to be taken seriously in a Modern High Performance System?
We all know and have agreed on that the CD is superior in all technical measures and convenience wise there's no comparison.
My vinyl collection had been moved to the basement by the mid 90s and was sold off in mass around 2010. I've never looked back. I used to listen to all the needledrop recordings I took hundreds of hours recording. But with my somewhat recent involvement in streaming, those files have lost their value to me.
If you have unlimited resources I can see vinyl having some fun attraction, but that would be after you've put together at a minimum, a SOTA 7.2.6 multich system using the absolute best speakers available.
YMMV
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
The comparisons you make are out in left field.. An antique sports car, yea it's a cool TOY that you might enjoy entering in some vintage races but you would never consider racing a 60s sports car against modern iron. Etc etc etc.
If you except the LP as deserving of a place in a modern HiFi, what about Shellac mono 78s, lot's of guys LOVE em. Or 7" 45s, Edison cylinders, RTR tape, RTR wire, compact cassette, 8 track cartridges. etc. From a personal interest/preference point of view any of the pieces I mentioned above can be supported by those who hold them dear but ???? Beyond gear kept as oddities or toys, at what point is a technology no longer deserving to be taken seriously in a Modern High Performance System?
We all know and have agreed on that the CD is superior in all technical measures and convenience wise there's no comparison.
My vinyl collection had been moved to the basement by the mid 90s and was sold off in mass around 2010. I've never looked back. I used to listen to all the needledrop recordings I took hundreds of hours recording. But with my somewhat recent involvement in streaming, those files have lost their value to me.
If you have unlimited resources I can see vinyl having some fun attraction, but that would be after you've put together at a minimum, a SOTA 7.2.6 multich system using the absolute best speakers available.
YMMV
I don't understand why this is an "either / or" decision, as opposed to "yes / and".
In my office / studio I run a Roon Server hooked up to about 2 TB of FLACs sitting on a NAS. I can either listen there, via a pretty darn good DAC/ADC over headphones or powered monitors. Or I can stream all of that into my living room for playback over wifi in my living room.
In my living room, I also have a modest (~400 LPs) vinyl collection, curated from a fairly narrow, record collector POV, using a set of criteria that most would find eccentric. And I have 2 RTR decks that I'm mid-progress in restoring / refurbishing.
While I'm not into multi-channel, my living room uses 2 x subwoofers and some very well-reviewed, monitor speakers.
I don't see the enjoyment I get from each of these different modalities to be contradictory, or in any way subtractive from each other.
If were to put another $20K into my system, I'd buy a 3rd Devialet and some kind of bigger 3-way speaker with no internal crossover at all and run an "externally active" / DSP crossover system, plus the existing subs, and spend whatever was left over on some room treatments and maybe either a fancier cartridge or something wonky like an SPU. But that doesn't mean I'd have to get rid of my vinyl or RTR.
Last edited:
Hypnotoad
Active Member
Me either, listening to some on here you would think that vinyl is the source of all things evil in the world.
