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Turntables - help me understand the appeal?
- Thread starter dkinric
- Start date
It is a damn shame how the loudness wars has effected the mastering of music over the last 20 years. A very unfortunate situation for sure and something we should oppose as strongly as possible. But all else being equal, the audible consequence is subtle. If I had my choice between a recording that has had it's DR compressed by a few points, or one that has had it's bass mono's, high freq rolled off or levels reduced, adjusted the FR balance differently for tracks that will be on the inner groves vs the outer groves, etc. There's. more tweaks that need to be made to a vinyl master tape to compensate for the mediums weaknesses in cutting that turn the final product into something different than the engineers/artists intent. I won't even mention the rice krispies and surface noise.
These tweaks may be part of the reason for some listeners preference but are again not desirable result. I needle dropped about 300 lp's before I retired about 10 years ago, then sold all the gear. I listen to the files often but would not invest any more money into a medium 3 decades pasted it's demise.
While digital technology is superior to 100 year old record technology the best versions of a lot of good music are still found on old pieces of plastic. I find the difference in the sound quality of for instance a 1970's classic rock original pressing record compared to the re-masted streaming version of the same record to be much greater than any amplifier or DAC difference I have ever heard. I created a sample of a needle drop drop of a sample of an original pressing song and a "capture" of the same song sample from Tidal. I tried to post them but it won't let me post flac or MP3... I tried to read the rules but didn't see anything that prevented it but I don't want to cause any trouble. If there is a way to post the samples let me know if not I listened to them and I think the difference is worth the trouble
There's a 2meg limit on uploads here, and restrictions on file types as well.
Try www.SoundCloud.com
Unfortunately it might block your samples via top-secret DRM if it figures out what it is and the rights owners object.
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Completely different masters being presented, where's the surprise in sounding different?
What is there to be learned about the sound quality of vinyl?
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When I think what vinyl replay actually means, I'm astounded it works at all. It has to resolve mechanical movements of the stylus down to something comparable with the wavelength of light, up to 20kHz, and with low(ish) distortion, and all from a piece of mass produced pressed plastic, manufactured for a few cents per disc.
If discs had never been invented, any engineer of today being asked to create a purely mechanical means of playing recorded music would do the sums and conclude it wasn't possible.
Just as well nobody told Berliner or Edison.
I'm reminded of a dog walking on its hind legs. Not that it can't do it well, but that it does it at all.
S
If discs had never been invented, any engineer of today being asked to create a purely mechanical means of playing recorded music would do the sums and conclude it wasn't possible.
Just as well nobody told Berliner or Edison.
I'm reminded of a dog walking on its hind legs. Not that it can't do it well, but that it does it at all.
S
One theory I’ve read about is that crosstalk inherent in vinyl playback actually makes for better location of stereo imaging.
This is the theory behind the “flow” option in Acourate
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/118374-acourateflow/
The other possibility is that vinyl playback is “good enough”. Yes digital is technically better but beyond a certain point it doesn’t matter. Or at least not as much as people think.
My personal experience is that there is a different connection to the music because of the ritual of playing a record.
This is the theory behind the “flow” option in Acourate
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/118374-acourateflow/
The other possibility is that vinyl playback is “good enough”. Yes digital is technically better but beyond a certain point it doesn’t matter. Or at least not as much as people think.
My personal experience is that there is a different connection to the music because of the ritual of playing a record.
Tinkering. In the case of vinyl a lot of the sort of audiophile tinkering and playing does actually make a difference, setting up arms, cartridges, getting a good phono stage, vibration isolation etc. So if you are the type of person who enjoys playing with stuff and endlessly experimenting to see what it does to sound then vinyl is brilliant.
One of the reasons we see so much idiocy and so many myths in digital music is that so many audiophiles really can't seem to understand that a digital data stream from a hard drive or optical dic or streaming isn't the same as an analogue stream from playing a vinyl record and that there just isn't the same potential to tinker and play, so aided and abetted by unscrupulous manufacturers and reviewers we see all this nonsense about audiophile USB cables, power chords, green highlighter pens, fancy equipment racks, clocks etc. If people really do like playing with gear then vinyl is the way to go.
One of the reasons we see so much idiocy and so many myths in digital music is that so many audiophiles really can't seem to understand that a digital data stream from a hard drive or optical dic or streaming isn't the same as an analogue stream from playing a vinyl record and that there just isn't the same potential to tinker and play, so aided and abetted by unscrupulous manufacturers and reviewers we see all this nonsense about audiophile USB cables, power chords, green highlighter pens, fancy equipment racks, clocks etc. If people really do like playing with gear then vinyl is the way to go.
The OP asked why any one would bother with vinyl playback when everything is available on streaming. My answer is because for many older titles the vinyl versions sound not only different but better because of both a fresher analog source and different styles of mastering. I thought by posting an example of the differences the OP could decide if it was something he would like to pursue. I have no illusions about the sound quality of vinyl vs digital all things being equal. The problem with many digital versions of old music is that both the original master tapes and the original machines were often worn out before the music ever got transferred to digital. It appears to me (by ABX testing) that a good vinyl pressing made from a fresh analog source will often times sound better than an old worn out analog source transferred to digital despite vinyls limitations. The problem is compounded when the old music is then "remastered" to both try to compensate for the lost information and to sound as loud as every other song being steamed. I wish there was a way to measure "musical information density" on a recording so we could objectively compare recording quality instead of just "that sounds better".
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My reasons...
1. It's fun cleaning up old records and getting them to sound good.
2. 70s and 80s LPs are generally mastered really well. A well maintained LP will most likely sound great on a quality setup.
3. You can do excellent needle drops with nothing more than a well designed PC sound card. Then enjoy the good mastering with no hassle.
4. The euphoria when listening to this vintage and flawed technology, and it just sounds great. There is definitely some euphonic distortion going on.
1. It's fun cleaning up old records and getting them to sound good.
2. 70s and 80s LPs are generally mastered really well. A well maintained LP will most likely sound great on a quality setup.
3. You can do excellent needle drops with nothing more than a well designed PC sound card. Then enjoy the good mastering with no hassle.
4. The euphoria when listening to this vintage and flawed technology, and it just sounds great. There is definitely some euphonic distortion going on.
jsrtheta
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I moved to Colorado from Chicago in 1993. I was boxing up my LPs when I thought, "The hell with this, they're too bulky, heavy and sound like shit." Called up an audio engineer friend of mine, and he took them off my hands. When they were loaded into his trunk, the rear end dropped about two inches. I held on to about half a dozen albums that I feared might never be released on CD. All those titles are now digitally available, so those LPs are gone now, too.
Since then, I have stopped by high end shops occasionally and listened to vinyl on pricey equipment. I have never regretted getting rid of the vinyl. I also have never forgotten my amazement when I heard my first CD.
If you want a medium that must screw with the original signal to even work (pre-emphasis, anyone?), which involves physically degrading the medium itself every time you play it, fine. But that "warm" sound people rave about is the product of distortion, cutoff low frequencies, and high frequencies that are rolled off.
Some folk like it. I wouldn't recommend it. It costs a lot to get halfway decent sound. More money than anyone should spend to be fashionable.
(There are digital recordings, from the beginning of CD, that were horribly made. And the loudness wars have indeed ruined some good recordings. But even then, nah, no vinyl for me. YMMV.)
Since then, I have stopped by high end shops occasionally and listened to vinyl on pricey equipment. I have never regretted getting rid of the vinyl. I also have never forgotten my amazement when I heard my first CD.
If you want a medium that must screw with the original signal to even work (pre-emphasis, anyone?), which involves physically degrading the medium itself every time you play it, fine. But that "warm" sound people rave about is the product of distortion, cutoff low frequencies, and high frequencies that are rolled off.
Some folk like it. I wouldn't recommend it. It costs a lot to get halfway decent sound. More money than anyone should spend to be fashionable.
(There are digital recordings, from the beginning of CD, that were horribly made. And the loudness wars have indeed ruined some good recordings. But even then, nah, no vinyl for me. YMMV.)
I'm just lazy. Audio for me is a means to an end, that end being to enjoy music I enjoy listening to. If I can switch something on, select a track and then just enjoy I really can't see the point of all that faffing about with vinyl and treating records like they were Faberge eggs etc.
Funny how those of us that were around back then did nothing but bitch about the horrid quality of pressings that we were getting. We looked to MFSL and others to bring us small improvements in both the mastering and pressing quality.
If listening to grinding sound of surface noise and the snap, crackle, pop, wow & flutter, the sound of off center holes and warped discs, the changing resolution from outer to inner groves, plus all the modifications to the master tape done to make it acceptable to a cutter head make you euphoric, have a orgy.
What would be a quality setup that doesn't cost thousands of dollars and doesn't require frequent maintenance?
Are there test records used for measurements? If so, has anyone done measurements? With the so many variable elements in the chain, this would have to be quite an elaborate experimental setup.
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Well I may not be of much help because my setup is a Technics SL1200GR which is $1700. It's a beautiful piece. My cartridge is an AT microline MM at $250 and my phono stage is a Mofi studio at $250. Not cheap but all are very well engineered. I've heard good things about the Pioneer PLX-1000. Even with that, you're over $1K total. The format is so primitive, it takes expensive gear to make it worthwhile.
This is a write-up of some VERY clever experiments meant to tease out the "why" of user preference for vinyl. Hint: it's not because of the sound.
I think it answers most of the questions raised here.
I think it answers most of the questions raised here.
cjfrbw
Senior Member
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The worst thing that happened to vinyl is it got snob appeal. Then, the oligarchs just HAD to have more and more expensive jewelry and bragging rights. Vinyl had become almost a DIY-type fringe niche for a while before then, and I think I liked that better. Also, I used to love it when people reviled vinyl, because it meant more record availability and reasonable prices for me.
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Yes, the snob appeal is frustrating. The crowd that dismisses red book CD as inferior to vinyl. It's all complete nonsense, as vinyl only has 50dB tops dynamic range. I enjoy vinyl but would never argue its superiority. I even get frustrated by the hi rez digital crowd spouting falsehoods about redbook.
