Turntables as an art form

[dr0ss]

I'm in Canada, but Pro-ject does seem to be widely carried here. So that is a plus.

In North America there's also U-Turn Audio (I mentioned them above). They are handmade in the USA, and are the only company I can think of in this market sector that uses actual wood, not veneer, including walnut and (for you Canadians) maple.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Fluance uses real veneer, but then hits it with a thick gloss finish. As someone who does some woodwork and loves wood, my first inclination would be to polish out the gloss.

But, it is also quite beautiful with the high gloss finish. The tone arm and plater reflect nicely off of the walnut surface, much like a image in a mirroring lake.

So as someone who doesn't do any woodwork, my inclination would be to leave the gloss finish as is.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

While it looks impressive, it doesn't look like what I want.

?
Sooo, what do you want? You didn't express any preference for design other than vague "cool" description and Transcriptor is universally accepted as the coolest turntable design on this planet.

Unless it also gives a back massage!

?
Are you referring to the "high" Transcriptor price on eBay? Really cool designs can't be chip, and working Transcriptor for $1100 (link in the post #52) is a steal and close enough to your upper limit (?) of $900 or 1200 CDN. Search on internet, you might get better offer than $1100.

At the moment, I am leaning to the Pro-Ject Debut Pro.

Price is $1189CDN in Toronto

You prefer this over Transcriptor???
Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Artsfols]

?
Sooo, what do you want? You didn't express any preference for design other than vague "cool" description and Transcriptor is universally accepted as the coolest turntable design on this planet.

?
Are you referring to the "high" Transcriptor price on eBay? Really cool designs can't be chip, and working Transcriptor for $1100 (link in the post #52) is a steal and close enough to your upper limit (?) of $900 or 1200 CDN. Search on internet, you might get better offer than $1100.


You prefer this over Transcriptor???
Sorry, couldn't resist...

'De gustibus non est disputandem' is how I would respond to your idea of something being "universally accepted". The phrase is Latin, because the idea goes back to Roman times: 'matters of taste can not be disputed'. Or, sometimes stated as 'there is no accounting for taste'. I like onions, you may not. Same goes with turntables.

The reason I don't like the 'Transcriptor', and clearly you disagree, is that the design breaks Occam's Razor - thou shalt not multiply entities beyond necessity. Some people have different ideas about 'necessity'. For example, a strobe to check speed on some turntables. I believe that such things are junky and I prefer a cleaner look. A much cleaner look.

Here is all the info on the Project Debut Pro. I especially like the tone arm design. Very clean. But I still have not made my final selection.

Debut PRO – Pro-Ject Audio Systems

www.project-audio.com

 

[Artsfols]

In North America there's also U-Turn Audio (I mentioned them above). They are handmade in the USA, and are the only company I can think of in this market sector that uses actual wood, not veneer, including walnut and (for you Canadians) maple.

Beautiful product and very nice web site. And they recognized me as a Canadian and appear to have dealt with Canadians before. However, they made a comment on duties being potentially applicable and that scares me. From experience, as a consumer importing a single item subject to duty, it's pot luck as to what you might get. There has been talk of 'de minimus' rules on duty, but it seems those would not apply here. It adds an incovenience/ risk factor I'm not willing to accept.
But the maple plinth table is gorgeous, and the price is very reasonable. The functionality is 'minimum audiophile' level, which is about what I want. I mean, you are playing records and there are inherent restrictions in the medium you're not going to transcend.

 

[egellings]

I am surprised nobody mentioned the Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference Turntable:

View attachment 255459

Now we can close this thread...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125704406857?hash=item1d44910749:g:yNUAAOSwA-BjtvIA&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsHUisjxbxI3bDIq8JgnqAwASgc4UgxiibjOoYjk0M/lYxLC1GLXGYe70i/MNe3tb6RLwIc2qYAHu+HlDbqWcHf4fiIIAEutS+iRZIoWIGSjG6f9V/HwjDPvRCvbv2jJHaWe5UfHS8BIcyajtWR7Si/gkAS4CH3GD+p5LJK3P1O3N0vYrdwqrlF2ahdsCebZ9Gav99rRh4Uh8jnEHIyjWm4rJokCvmXYhgoeYaa7yMYE9|tkp:Bk9SR5rK-JaxYQ

Beautiful looking TT, But the record is not very well damped on that, and feedback could happen if its output is played loudly.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

'De gustibus non est disputandem' is how I would respond to your idea of something being "universally accepted". The phrase is Latin, because the idea goes back to Roman times: 'matters of taste can not be disputed'. Or, sometimes stated as 'there is no accounting for taste'. I like onions, you may not. Same goes with turntables.

The reason I don't like the 'Transcriptor', and clearly you disagree, is that the design breaks Occam's Razor - thou shalt not multiply entities beyond necessity. Some people have different ideas about 'necessity'. For example, a strobe to check speed on some turntables. I believe that such things are junky and I prefer a cleaner look. A much cleaner look.

Here is all the info on the Project Debut Pro. I especially like the tone arm design. Very clean. But I still have not made my final selection.

So you are looking for a clean design, not a cool design!
Your first post ("I want something that looks really cool") was misleading, then...
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference is universally accepted as the most cool turntable design, also it is universally accepted that it is not the most clean design. Your taste (for clean design) confirms the universally accepted opinion that Transcriptor is not the most clean design.
BTW, the Occam's Razor is not what you think it is...

Beautiful looking TT, But the record is not very well damped on that, and feedback could happen if its output is played loudly.

Yes, but that results in "magical sound envelopment and air around the instruments".
Seriously - feedback in the gramophone reproduction introduces reverb-like effect, worshiped by vinyl enthusiasts.

 

[Holmz]

...
Yes, but that results in "magical sound envelopment and air around the instruments".
Seriously - feedback in the gramophone reproduction introduces reverb-like effect, worshiped by vinyl enthusiasts.

That sounds like free energy.
Just convert the extra reverb to electricity and we could get rid if power stations.
Just get the gramophone resonating and sit back and reap the benefits.

 

[dr0ss]

Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference is universally accepted as the most cool turntable design,

Not universal. Some people think maglev turntables are cooler, some think that vertical turntables are cooler, some think that vertical trackers are cooler. Me, I like changers, especially big ones like the Chantal jukeboxes. Not all people share the same aesthetic standard.

 

[Artsfols]

So you are looking for a clean design, not a cool design!
Your first post ("I want something that looks really cool") was misleading, then...
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference is universally accepted as the most cool turntable design, also it is universally accepted that it is not the most clean design. Your taste (for clean design) confirms the universally accepted opinion that Transcriptor is not the most clean design.
BTW, the Occam's Razor is not what you think it is...

Yes, but that results in "magical sound envelopment and air around the instruments".
Seriously - feedback in the gramophone reproduction introduces reverb-like effect, worshiped by vinyl enthusiasts.

I'm not sure what I want. I just thought we could have an interesting discussion about the look of turntables instead of their performance. Please don't take my comments as a slight of the Transcriptor. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. But I'll reject all turntables except the one I end up purchasing. Part of it is how this turntable will look in the room and our house, which is why the use of natural wood has some appeal. But mainly it's a matter of personal taste. If I wanted a new painting for our living room, Rembrandt might not do. That's not a critique of Rembrandt.
I've read a fair degree on Occam's Razor so I do know a bit about it. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the Razor is not always correct or useful.

 

[Hiten]

Have been following development of U-Turn audio from their kick starter days and is already mentioned. Good looking american turntable.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sony

Audio Technica

Dont know performance of these.
regards

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Not universal. Some people think maglev turntables are cooler, some think that vertical turntables are cooler, some think that vertical trackers are cooler. Me, I like changers, especially big ones like the Chantal jukeboxes. Not all people share the same aesthetic standard.

Mag-Lev turntable is unobtainable - on KickStarter there are numerous angry letters of backers who paid and didn't receive the turntable, one is claiming he was #145 backer who paid 3 years ago and didn't receive the turntable, so certainly there were less than 145 Mag-Lev turntables produced, probably much less. You can't compare cool, but imaginary unicorn (Mag-Lev) with real, really cool turntable (Transcriptor) which you can actually buy second-hand on eBay anytime. There are no MagLev turntables on eBay, so - pure vaporware, which can not be compared with other turntables on the "cool scale".
In spite of different tastes, I can bet anyone who thinks vertical turntables are the most cool turntables on Earth, have never seen photo of Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference.
Chantal jukebox and the ilks are not domestic hi-fi gramophones/turntables - you are trying to compare apples and oranges (hamburgers and oranges, really).

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

I'm not sure what I want. I just thought we could have an interesting discussion about the look of turntables instead of their performance. Please don't take my comments as a slight of the Transcriptor. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. But I'll reject all turntables except the one I end up purchasing. Part of it is how this turntable will look in the room and our house, which is why the use of natural wood has some appeal. But mainly it's a matter of personal taste. If I wanted a new painting for our living room, Rembrandt might not do. That's not a critique of Rembrandt.
I've read a fair degree on Occam's Razor so I do know a bit about it. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the Razor is not always correct or useful.

If you asked for a "clean" design (instead of "cool") in your first post, I wouldn't have suggested Transcriptor turntable at all.
After choosing the right design model, it is easy to find appropriate finish. Many turntables are available in different finishes, including natural wood.
Occam's Razor has nothing to do with aesthetic (art) - otherwise you will choose Paul Bilhaud's painting "Combat de nègres pendant la nuit" for your living room, instead of any other painting (Rembrandt including):

 

[egellings]

So you are looking for a clean design, not a cool design!
Your first post ("I want something that looks really cool") was misleading, then...
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference is universally accepted as the most cool turntable design, also it is universally accepted that it is not the most clean design. Your taste (for clean design) confirms the universally accepted opinion that Transcriptor is not the most clean design.
BTW, the Occam's Razor is not what you think it is...

Yes, but that results in "magical sound envelopment and air around the instruments".
Seriously - feedback in the gramophone reproduction introduces reverb-like effect, worshiped by vinyl enthusiasts.

Oooh, I gotta get me one, then.

 

[dr0ss]

You seem really invested in the idea that your ranking of "cool" is absolute. Remember, you live in a world where not everyone agrees that Sean Connery was the best James Bond.

There are turntable for sale on ebay with maglev tonearms and maglev spindle bearings. These are not visually apparent in the table, but are still extremely cool, some would say more so than the superficial bling of the Transcriptor. While this might not mean they are visually cool, I would say that for those that like industrial design the Amaris can give the Mitchells serious competition in that regard.

As for jukeboxes, of course they are just glorified changers, like the Webcor all-in-one that I grew up with. The original distribution channel does not determine the category.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

You seem really invested in the idea that your ranking of "cool" is absolute. Remember, you live in a world where not everyone agrees that Sean Connery was the best James Bond.

Roger Moore was the best James Bond, hands down. I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise.

There are turntable for sale on ebay with maglev tonearms and maglev spindle bearings.

Complete, working Mag-Lev turntable on eBay?! Link, please?
Or just Mag-Lev tonearms and spindle bearings for sale? In that case - sorry, that is not a Mag-Lev turntable!

As for jukeboxes, of course they are just glorified changers, like the Webcor all-in-one that I grew up with. The original distribution channel does not determine the category.

Jukebox is a coin-operated machine for pubs, clubs, etc. - it is not a changer turntable for home use. You can not compare them.

 

[dr0ss]

Complete, working Mag-Lev turntable on eBay?! Link, please?

For example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/185224650178
And I think all the Amari turntables have a magnetic support bearing in the spindle.

Jukebox is a coin-operated machine for pubs, clubs, etc. - it is not a changer turntable for home use. You can not compare them.

A jukebox is just a sophisticated changer, usually with a built-in amp and speaker.

For comparison, I have a "commercial" espresso machine in my kitchen. It required special mains wiring and plumbing, but it is still an espresso machine. If I took the changer out of the old Magnavox console in my garage and bolted it to the top of my espresso machine, then the espresso machine would also be a turntable. And it would be cooler than the Mitchell turntable. (Figuratively speaking, of course; the top of the espresso machine is record-warpingly hot.)

 

[Artsfols]

If you asked for a "clean" design (instead of "cool") in your first post, I wouldn't have suggested Transcriptor turntable at all.
After choosing the right design model, it is easy to find appropriate finish. Many turntables are available in different finishes, including natural wood.
Occam's Razor has nothing to do with aesthetic (art) - otherwise you will choose Paul Bilhaud's painting "Combat de nègres pendant la nuit" for your living room, instead of any other painting (Rembrandt including):

View attachment 256727

Aesthetic is sometimes seen as a product of function. A lean design produces a product that looks a certain way. This is entirely the aesthetic of B&O products, to cite an example, and it very much has to do with minimizing functionality. The idea is that if the product is 'simple' and easy to use, it will have a certain aesthetic. Here is a quote directly from the B&O web site.
"Therefore Bang & Olufsen products are not only aesthetically pleasing but are also functional and easy to use. This has always been the case with the company, ever since its founding it has produced ranges of products that were striking to look at, easy to use and which were manufactured to the highest standards."
It is not difficult to find essays on the web which explore this subject. Your proposition that the application of Occam's Razor to art will produce a black painting is nonsensical. The application of Occam's razor to visual art means that the painting should reveal its meaning with a minimum of elements: only what is necessary, and nothing that is not necessary. This is not to say that a painting is not good, if the razor is not applied. But if one is partaking in this aesthetic, that is what one does.
Occam’s Razor: Art, Science, & Aesthetics

 

[dougi]

Mag-Lev turntable is unobtainable - on KickStarter there are numerous angry letters of backers who paid and didn't receive the turntable, one is claiming he was #145 backer who paid 3 years ago and didn't receive the turntable, so certainly there were less than 145 Mag-Lev turntables produced, probably much less. You can't compare cool, but imaginary unicorn (Mag-Lev) with real, really cool turntable (Transcriptor) which you can actually buy second-hand on eBay anytime. There are no MagLev turntables on eBay, so - pure vaporware, which can not be compared with other turntables on the "cool scale".
In spite of different tastes, I can bet anyone who thinks vertical turntables are the most cool turntables on Earth, have never seen photo of Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference.
Chantal jukebox and the ilks are not domestic hi-fi gramophones/turntables - you are trying to compare apples and oranges (hamburgers and oranges, really).

I believe Mag-Lev turntables do exist in the wild. I have seen one at a local retailer and also stocked at other Australian retailers. Or is this a different product from the kickstarter project you mention? There has also been a detailed review of one locally, and elsewhere.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

For example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/185224650178
And I think all the Amari turntables have a magnetic support bearing in the spindle.

Sorry - it is NOT a Mag-Lev turntable! The disk is NOT levitating two inches above the plinth - the whole COOL factor is entirely missing! You can not see it has a magnetic bearing (also for Amari)!

A jukebox is just a sophisticated changer, usually with a built-in amp and speaker.

But the form factor and DESIGN are totally different - hamburgers and oranges. Are we talking about (cool) DESIGN here? Not to mention coin-operating principle.

For comparison, I have a "commercial" espresso machine in my kitchen. It required special mains wiring and plumbing, but it is still an espresso machine.

But the form factor and design are identical (see above). Not to mention that commercial espresso machine is not coin-operated.

If I took the changer out of the old Magnavox console in my garage and bolted it to the top of my espresso machine, then the espresso machine would also be a turntable. And it would be cooler than the Mitchell turntable. (Figuratively speaking, of course; the top of the espresso machine is record-warpingly hot.)

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