Turntables as an art form

[dr0ss]

And none of them are true Scotsmen.

 

[Artsfols]

The proposition of a 'magnetic levitation' turntable is interesting, but I am highly doubtful. I have a small magnetic levitation device, a metal top that spins in the air above a magnetic frame. It's very difficult to activate, and requires trial and error adjustments to the top with small plates with 1g, 2g and 5g weights, and then one must spin the top in the air at a specific height. It can take many tries.
So, such a turntable device should work, but would be ultra sensitive to weight and position. The difficulty I see is a) maintaining speed at 33 1/3 rpm given air friction, and b) if the magnetic field and platter weight were designed for that speed, how does the device get up to speed? I can see the platter flying off the turntable across the room at a 45 degree angle, the way my small top will do. That would be quite the party trick.

 

[sergeauckland]

I've never understood how that MagLev turntable would ever work. Without a constraint, the platter would be extremely unstable, any levelling dependent on the weight of the record, and I would expect wow and flutter under dynamic conditions, i.e. variable stylus drag, to be very poor.

The only thing going for it is cool looks

MagLev, with two opposing magnets and a conventional central bearing can work, as all the magnets do is to remove the load from the bearing, thus reducing rumble, but then it won't look any different to a turntable with a conventional bearing.

I'm reminded of the Laser turntable which whilst avoiding stylus and record wear, would play every spec of dust as modulation!

S.

 

[drmevo]

How about a Technics 1500c? Comes in Silver or Black. Comes with a good phono preamp, as well as the ability to bypass it completely if you want to use an external one. All the arm adjustments you need, and rock-solid speed control. Seems to fit the budget at $1300US (not sure about Canadian pricing).

I recently upgraded from a Pro-ject Debut Carbon Evo to a SL-1210GR. I was never a fan of the Technics aesthetic from seeing pictures, but in person it is gorgeous and miles better than my old Pro-ject in sound and function.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Aesthetic is sometimes seen as a product of function. A lean design produces a product that looks a certain way. This is entirely the aesthetic of B&O products, to cite an example, and it very much has to do with minimizing functionality. The idea is that if the product is 'simple' and easy to use, it will have a certain aesthetic.

Minimizing functionality?!
Here is a B&O rebuttal:

Here is a quote directly from the B&O web site.
"Therefore Bang & Olufsen products are not only aesthetically pleasing but are also functional and easy to use. This has always been the case with the company, ever since its founding it has produced ranges of products that were striking to look at, easy to use and which were manufactured to the highest standards."

Bang & Olufsen products are fully functional! Skillful hiding functions is not a lack of functions!

B&O Beomaster 1900 receiver with closed lid:

B&O Beomaster 1900 receiver with open lid:

It is not difficult to find essays on the web which explore this subject. Your proposition that the application of Occam's Razor to art will produce a black painting is nonsensical. The application of Occam's razor to visual art means that the painting should reveal its meaning with a minimum of elements: only what is necessary, and nothing that is not necessary. This is not to say that a painting is not good, if the razor is not applied. But if one is partaking in this aesthetic, that is what one does.
Occam’s Razor: Art, Science, & Aesthetics

You got it all wrong. Occam's Razor is at home in philosophy and science. It's use in art should be in the context of something, otherwise it will be nonsensical.
Your link proves that, because it is:
"Call for works of art inspired by science. ... Propeller Centre for the Visual Arts (PCVA) and the Idea Gallery at the Ontario Science Centre are calling for works of art inspired by science, for a group exhibition ... Submissions* to include: A 75-word statement (to be used as a label) describing how the artwork relates to science."
(Quotations are from the link you provided)

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

The proposition of a 'magnetic levitation' turntable is interesting, but I am highly doubtful. ...
So, such a turntable device should work, but would be ultra sensitive to weight and position. The difficulty I see is a) maintaining speed at 33 1/3 rpm given air friction, and b) if the magnetic field and platter weight were designed for that speed, how does the device get up to speed? I can see the platter flying off the turntable across the room at a 45 degree angle, the way my small top will do. That would be quite the party trick.

I've never understood how that MagLev turntable would ever work. Without a constraint, the platter would be extremely unstable, any levelling dependent on the weight of the record, and I would expect wow and flutter under dynamic conditions, i.e. variable stylus drag, to be very poor.
...

Rest assured, Mag-Lev works well. There are Youtube videos where rotating platter is poked with finger and nothing worrisome happens, except some wobble.

 

[dr0ss]

Beogram would be the perfect solution for the OP, and overall an attractive choice for many, except that they decided to use proprietary cartridges. Stupidly, you can get adapters to use BO cartridges on standard decks, but AFAIK not the other way around.

 

[dougi]

I've never understood how that MagLev turntable would ever work. Without a constraint, the platter would be extremely unstable, any levelling dependent on the weight of the record, and I would expect wow and flutter under dynamic conditions, i.e. variable stylus drag, to be very poor.

The only thing going for it is cool looks

MagLev, with two opposing magnets and a conventional central bearing can work, as all the magnets do is to remove the lad from the bearing, thus reducing rumble, but then it won't look any different to a turntable with a conventional bearing.

I'm reminded of the Laser turntable which whilst avoiding stylus and record wear, would play every spec of dust as modulation!

S.

As I said in my post, there is a commercial product, with a few reviews.

 

[dr0ss]

As I said in my post, there is a commercial product, with a few reviews.

The Slovenian Mag-Lev gets around the stability problems, which are unavoidable with fixed magnets, because of Earnshaw's Theorem, by using electromagnets which are cleverly controlled to both spin and balance the platter. It is like maglev trains, which use electromagnets for both suspension, guidance, and propulsion.
It is really rather ingenious, though according to measurements of this particular TT there is no performance improvement over a conventional turntable. You can levitate spindle bearings more simply with permanent magnets, and avoid Earnshaw's Theorem because you have other mechanical constraints (like the sleeve). In theory this should reduce bearing friction, therefore rumble and possibly wow, but I don't know how tables with this technology (like the Amari) measure. The fact that you can't see the platter levitating in such tables does not mean it is not maglev; you also can't see maglev trains sitting invisibly clear of the rails . However, I suppose the fact that only the suspension--and not the propulsion--in these particular TTs is magnetic might be an argument against using the term.

 

[dr0ss]

Not to mention coin-operating principle.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

I believe Mag-Lev turntables do exist in the wild. I have seen one at a local retailer and also stocked at other Australian retailers. Or is this a different product from the kickstarter project you mention? There has also been a detailed review of one locally, and elsewhere.

Have you seen the price? It is $4850, far above the OP limit of $900 (1200 CDN). That is one of the reasons why I didn't suggest them to the OP.
Yes, it is the same Mag-Lev and several uber-expensive units maybe exist at some dealers... but nobody will buy them.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

...

It is not a jukebox, nor a changer. It is a coin-operated gramophone for public use, not for the home.

 

[dr0ss]

I suppose that if you tack enough qualifiers onto "turntable" and "cool" then you can make sure the intersection contains just one object

My definitions are less context-dependent. For me, a "turntable" is a spinning platter supporting a record, which is played by some kind of tracking device. The device might be at the end of an arm pivoting from the end, or an arm moving linearly along a track, or something else I haven't thought of. The play can be by stylus, by laser, or by something else. I consider those all "turntables", regardless of whether the thing is at one's home or not, whether the record is placed on the platter by hand or by some kind of device, or whether the on/off switch is a lever, an app, or a coinbox. (For that matter, I accept just the spinning platter alone as a "turntable".) In particular, I don't believe that when I bought my Thorens from a recording studio it suddenly became a turntable (but was something else when it was being used commercially), nor do I believe that if I glued a coin-op switch to it it would cease to be a turntable.

Likewise, I consider "cool" a subjective term which, when one uses it, is shorthand for "cool in my opinion", and I think it would be weird to try to tell someone that their taste is objectively wrong.

In the context of this thread the OP is the ultimate arbiter of what "cool" means to him (though I think his taste is not a million miles off my own); and, while I do not know if his taste ran to jukeboxes, if he were to buy one and disable the coin operation (as many people do when they buy jukeboxes for home use) I think he would be allowed to say he bought a turntable without being corrected.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

I suppose that if you tack enough qualifiers onto "turntable" and "cool" then you can make sure the intersection contains just one object

When you try to intersect $900 and "cool turntable", choices are very limited, so finding only one object that satisfies both criteria is not surprising.
Anyway, OP really wanted "clean", not "cool" turntable, as we learned later.

My definitions are less context-dependent. For me, a "turntable" is a spinning platter supporting a record, which is played by some kind of tracking device. The device might be at the end of an arm pivoting from the end, or an arm moving linearly along a track, or something else I haven't thought of. The play can be by stylus, by laser, or by something else. I consider those all "turntables", regardless of whether the thing is at one's home or not, whether the record is placed on the platter by hand or by some kind of device, or whether the on/off switch is a lever, an app, or a coinbox. (For that matter, I accept just the spinning platter alone as a "turntable".) In particular, I don't believe that when I bought my Thorens from a recording studio it suddenly became a turntable (but was something else when it was being used commercially), nor do I believe that if I glued a coin-op switch to it it would cease to be a turntable.

Likewise, I consider "cool" a subjective term which, when one uses it, is shorthand for "cool in my opinion", and I think it would be weird to try to tell someone that their taste is objectively wrong.

In the context of this thread the OP is the ultimate arbiter of what "cool" means to him (though I think his taste is not a million miles off my own); and, while I do not know if his taste ran to jukeboxes, if he were to buy one and disable the coin operation (as many people do when they buy jukeboxes for home use) I think he would be allowed to say he bought a turntable without being corrected.

Your definition is wrong. Where is this world going with everyone having his own definition on everything, including what is a good/clean/cool design? What do you think, what are they teaching the students at the art/design universities?
Of course, someone freely may have opinion about what is "cool" or not. But if he hasn't seen hundreds of different turntable designs (preferably prized as good designs), he is not in the position to be an "ultimate arbiter" in what is "cool" or not. He would choose a kitsch and be very happy with it... and everyone around him will laugh behind his back.

Obviously, you don't work in the industry and consequently, you don't know how products are/were designed, why they are designed that way, and why they are named with those names. Jukeboxes are designed as such, you can put one in your home and disable coin-operating mechanism, but it is steel a jukebox, not a changer turntable! You can slap there a linear tracking arm with laser pickup, but sorry - still it is a jukebox, not a turntable!

I don't understand what that Thorens episode is about. Professional turntables from recording studios, when transferred to homes, are still turntables (although bulky).

 

[mike70]

Professional turntables from recording studios, when transferred to homes, are still turntables (although bulky).

Yes, like Techie 1200 is not "audiophile" because it was used by Djs.
Oh yes, a 5 pounds turntable without pitch, VTA adjustment and a plastic toy as motor is better :-(

A 25 pounds turntable that works in club environments (vibration control), rock solid speed, helicoidal VTA mechanism, adjustable feets to perfect levelling, etc cannot play records well. Come on.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

?
I just said that professional (or DJ) turntables are just that - turntables, whether in homes or not. Many of them are much better than "high-end hi-fi" overly priced junk.

 

[mike70]

?
I just said that professional (or DJ) turntables are just that - turntables, whether in homes or not. Many of them are much better than "high-end hi-fi" overly priced junk.

Yes, my post was to agree with you 200%

 

[dr0ss]

Your definition is wrong.

My definition of "turntable" is literally the dictionary definition, see
https://recordsoundpro.com/what-is-exactly-a-turntable-its-definition-use-and-history/
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/turntable
The definition doesn't care why the thing was designed, or where it was situated, only what it is supposed to do and how it does that.
If you have a different definition, then you ought to give it and explain how jukeboxes or coin-operated decks don't meet it

The idea that someone doesn't get to decide for himself what is "cool-looking" is just bizarre.

I don't understand what that Thorens episode is about. Professional turntables from recording studios, when transferred to homes, are still turntables (although bulky).

You said in at least 2 posts upthread that something wasn't a turntable because it wasn't designed for home use.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

My definition of "turntable" is literally the dictionary definition, see
https://recordsoundpro.com/what-is-exactly-a-turntable-its-definition-use-and-history/
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/turntable
The definition doesn't care why the thing was designed, or where it was situated, only what it is supposed to do and how it does that.
If you have a different definition, then you ought to give it and explain how jukeboxes or coin-operated decks don't meet it

Quote from the link you provided:
"In the simplest terms, a turntable is a device for playing vinyl records."
If you are satisfied with the simplest terms explanation, then you have a big problems in your life...

Definitions from Wikipedia:
"A jukebox is a partially automated music-playing device, usually a coin-operated machine, that will play a patron's selection from self-contained media. The classic jukebox has buttons, with letters and numbers on them, which are used to select a specific record."
"Disc changers are similar devices that are intended for home use, are small enough to fit in a shelf, may hold up to hundreds of discs, and allow discs to be easily removed, replaced, and inserted by the user."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukebox
Can see that jukebox and changers are not a simple turntables?

The idea that someone doesn't get to decide for himself what is "cool-looking" is just bizarre.

The idea that someone decide for himself what is "cool-looking" even he hasn't seen more than four or five different turntable designs in his whole life is just laughable. Even more bizarre is if someone thinks that designs prized by knowledgeable experts are not "cool-looking" enough (or just plain wrong).

You said in at least 2 posts upthread that something wasn't a turntable because it wasn't designed for home use.

No, I didn't say that. I said that a unit specifically designed for a use significantly different from a home use, has a different name. See above definitions for jukeboxes and changers.

 

[dr0ss]

You have reason to believe that the OP has only seen 4 or 5 turntables in his life?
What is your definition of "turntable", if you do not like the dictionary definitions?
You think changers aren't turntables??