Turntable setup, going from Polk RTi6 Bookies to some uber bookies?

[fendersrule]

Hi everyone!

System:

Denon PMA800NE
Polk RTi6 Bookshelves
Denon DP300F Turntable with upgraded cart/stylus (this will soon be upgraded)
Camrbidge Solo Pre-amp.

90% turntable use, 10% digital usage (movies/show/TV)

I have a living room that is in the same area is the kitchen. Probably something like 35' x 14' or something like that.

I have my speakers about 14' apart and have them hanging up in corners facing slightly inward on mounts. They fill out the space pretty nicely I think.

Now, these are monitor type speakers, so everything sounds pretty clean and what-not. What I would like in the future is:

1) Something a tad more live sounding, maybe time to leave the monitor-realm, but to not get something that colors the sound too much.

2) Something that produces a bigger wall of sound, but staying in a format that will be accepting of wall-mounting. Wifey (and myself) do not want speakers on the floor (no room for it either)

My reference point so far is Zu Omen FS speakers. These absolutely crush my RTi6s in just about every possible way--maybe one way they don't is due to the fact that they have a live sound, the upper registers tend to get more colored while my RTi6s keep them more clean, but that's a bit subjective.

That's pretty much it. I'm not in a position to spend too much over $1000 in budget, but I'm curious on what you guys would think would fit the bill? My guess is it's probably going to need to either be a 3-way speaker that has a 10" driver, or perhaps there's a larger 7"-8" 2-way that would work that don't eat up the mids. It's going to need to have a frontward baffle since it will sit in a corner.

If I absolutely positively have to go floor standing, then I can maybe convince the wife, and we'd have to move some things around so that sound wouldn't be blocked (and would need to reposition nearly half of the room) so I would really like to try to avoid that.

 

[sdiver68]

So many compromises with your physical set-up. Have you thought about starting by adding a powered Sub?

 

[fendersrule]

We don't want to add a sub. I feel that we shouldn't need to, to be honest. I'm going for a bit more purist, regardless.

What are the "so many" compromises part? My physical space is actually really awesome music right now, just want to upgrade better speakers. I have cathedral ceilings and it really offers a great envelope for listening with a higher elevated position. Just having problems figuring out "what's next" because most bookshelf speakers are actually smaller than the RTi6s. The ones that are bigger are just....a little bigger where I'm not sure if the difference is going to be there.

 

[sdiver68]

We don't want to add a sub. I feel that we shouldn't need to, to be honest. I'm going for a bit more purist, regardless.

What are the "so many" compromises part? My physical space is actually really awesome music right now, just want to upgrade better speakers. I have cathedral ceilings and it really offers a great envelope for listening with a higher elevated position. Just having problems figuring out "what's next" because most bookshelf speakers are actually smaller than the RTi6s. The ones that are bigger are just....a little bigger where I'm not sure if the difference is going to be there.

1] High corner wall mounted placement to start...perhaps a picture will help. Maybe doable, not purist for a variety of reasons.

2) Using bookshelves for full range and wanting a "bigger wall of sound"

3) Your receiver errr...50W integrated amp... may be stressed depending upon how loud you want your wall of sound to be.

4) No mention of room correction software.

Just trying to help, no offense as to the potential of your room intended.

 

[ThatM1key]

As a Polk guy, Polk RTi6's paired with a Denon PMA800NE, what a odd pairing. Polk RTi's speakers lean towards being more movie focused than music focused. I think your should aim for towers, modern bookshelf's with big woofers are rare. Bookshelf's with big woofers tend be more wider than towers.

In my experience, towers fill a room better than bookshelf's. I even got a "big" bookshelf, the Polk RT55i, and that pair doesn't even match my Polk S55's. If you still like that RTi sound for music, you could try some Polk RTi-12/RTi-A9 towers. I mean if you willing to stay in the Polk Audio realm & want better sound, You could go the Polk S55/Polk S60 towers route or even the Polk R500 tower route. I may sound like a huge Polk fan that eats up every product but I can tell you this, the Polk subwoofers are pretty garbage .

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks!

My RTI6s were basically free. I used them to replace Monitor 30s. That was a DEFINITE upgrade hands down. Keep in mind that I've been upgrading as I go, so not everything is going to be perfectly matched until I've gone over everything!

@sdiver68, the Denon PMA-800NE is a beast Integrated. I would be surprised if it wasn't good enough to drive most speakers. I'm very happy with it and plan to keep that for a long time. That kind of was my long-term $$$ upgrade that I gifted myself for X-mas

I definitely don't want a subwoofer. That's for home theater stuff IMO, not for vinyl listening. My home theater room has all that stuff! I've heard some fine setups that didn't have a subwoofer in site, and there was plenty of bass!

No need to stay with Polk but yeah, I'm looking for a bigger sound in which something that I can wall mount. I can certainly post a picture of my listening space, but anything that goes on the floor will be blocked. The constraint here is I need something that I can mount on the wall, in corners, that will provide an upgrade over the Polk RTi6s that will give me bigger, better, more live-sound.

 

[sdiver68]

Thanks!

My RTI6s were basically free. I used them to replace Monitor 30s. That was a DEFINITE upgrade hands down. Keep in mind that I've been upgrading as I go, so not everything is going to be perfectly matched until I've gone over everything!

@sdiver68, the Denon PMA-800NE is a beast Integrated. I would be surprised if it wasn't good enough to drive most speakers. I'm very happy with it and plan to keep that for a long time. That kind of was my long-term $$$ upgrade that I gifted myself for X-mas

I definitely don't want a subwoofer. That's for home theater stuff IMO, not for vinyl listening. My home theater room has all that stuff! I've heard some fine setups that didn't have a subwoofer in site, and there was plenty of bass!

No need to stay with Polk but yeah, I'm looking for a bigger sound in which something that I can wall mount. I can certainly post a picture of my listening space, but anything that goes on the floor will be blocked. The constraint here is I need something that I can mount on the wall, in corners, that will provide an upgrade over the Polk RTi6s that will give me bigger, better, more live-sound.

You've got it all figured out then. Good luck in your search.

 

[Kuppenbender]

If you don’t want a sub, and your budget’s $1000, the Revel f35 might be the answer - floorstanders though.

You could try some room eq with your current set up for half that (Minidsp DDRC-24). That might compensate a bit for the unconventional positioning of your speakers, but may not give you the live sounding effect you’re looking for.

The thing is, ASR differs from other audio forums. Most of us are interested in transparent media and electronics, matched with speakers that produce consistent and full frequency response. A subwoofer or two with room EQ and bass management will provide that. Subjective terms like live sounding may mean different things to different people, so don’t really help us to understand your problem.

 

[witwald]

I definitely don't want a subwoofer. That's for home theater stuff IMO, not for vinyl listening.

If there's a preference for bookshelf loudspeakers without a subwoofer, then how do you go about reproducing the following type of music signal?

Its frequency spectrum is shown below. Note that it contains lots of energy around 30 Hz, which most bookshelf speakers won't be able to reproduce at the proper sound level relative to the other parts of the music.

I've heard some fine setups that didn't have a subwoofer in site, and there was plenty of bass!

Those were unlikely to have been compact bookshelf loudspeakers. At best, using 8-inch woofers, they tend to be heavily rolled off below 45Hz or so. Those using 6.5-inch woofers, which seem quite common these days, roll off even earlier, below 55–60Hz.

Denon PMA800NE ... I have a living room that is in the same area is the kitchen. Probably something like 35' x 14' or something like that.

The amplifier seems like a nice unit. However, the 50W RMS into 8 ohms is moderate power for the relatively large space the speakers are playing into. Of course, a lot depends on the maximum SPLs that you may wish to listen at.

1) Something a tad more live sounding, maybe time to leave the monitor-realm, but to not get something that colors the sound too much.

From a subjective standpoint, those requirements seem almost at odds with each other. The RTi6 probably weren't designed as monitor loudspeakers, but more for home theatre applications. If anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, the RTi6 have a rising high-frequency response, which is not aimed at accurate sound reproduction. This seems to be supported by your comment that "everything sounds pretty clean".

Have you tried applying a little reduction to the high frequencies, using the treble control on your amplifier? Did you like the result on a wide variety of music program material? I'd suggest trying that out over a few days of listening, as the tonal balance will be quite different to what you are used to.

My reference point so far is Zu Omen FS speakers. These absolutely crush my RTi6s in just about every possible way--maybe one way they don't is due to the fact that they have a live sound, the upper registers tend to get more colored while my RTi6s keep them more clean, but that's a bit subjective.

The Zu Omen loudspeakers appear to have very high sensitivity (97dB SPL @ 1m). The drivers needed to achieve that are generally going to end up having cone breakup resonances. Hence your subjective perception that they sounded more colored than your RTi6s.

If I absolutely positively have to go floor standing, ...

That may be the only way you are going to achieve the sound quality upgrade that you would like to have. A largish bookshelf loudspeaker with an 8-inch woofer might get you some of the way, but such a design will often have directivity problems through the crossover region between the woofer and the tweeter.

 

[beagleman]

Thanks!

My RTI6s were basically free. I used them to replace Monitor 30s. That was a DEFINITE upgrade hands down. Keep in mind that I've been upgrading as I go, so not everything is going to be perfectly matched until I've gone over everything!

@sdiver68, the Denon PMA-800NE is a beast Integrated. I would be surprised if it wasn't good enough to drive most speakers. I'm very happy with it and plan to keep that for a long time. That kind of was my long-term $$$ upgrade that I gifted myself for X-mas

I definitely don't want a subwoofer. That's for home theater stuff IMO, not for vinyl listening. My home theater room has all that stuff! I've heard some fine setups that didn't have a subwoofer in site, and there was plenty of bass!

No need to stay with Polk but yeah, I'm looking for a bigger sound in which something that I can wall mount. I can certainly post a picture of my listening space, but anything that goes on the floor will be blocked. The constraint here is I need something that I can mount on the wall, in corners, that will provide an upgrade over the Polk RTi6s that will give me bigger, better, more live-sound.

Your "Ideas" about subs are quite odd. MOST speakers do not have deep enough bass.
The Rti6 do quite decent deep bass wise, AND I OWN A PAIR right now, and can tell you, switching my sub in with the same speakers you own, makes a VERY nice upgrade in sound.

It is not about PLENTY OF BASS, but about extending the bass deeper, and also relieving the main amp and small speakers OF bass. A truly far cleaner sound that extends the bass from about 45hz or so with the Rti6 alone to a truly Deep 30hz.

Huge difference.
FYI Not sure what makes "Vinyl listening" different, but deep bass is deep bass.

 

[DVDdoug]

it's probably going to need to either be a 3-way speaker that has a 10" driver,

In my (old school) book, 10-inches is barely a woofer.

I definitely don't want a subwoofer.

You might be surprised how much "bigger" and "more powerful" your system sounds with improved bass, even without more volume. That bass can come from a full-range speaker or a subwoofer.

If I absolutely positively have to go floor standing, then I can maybe convince the wife

My rear speakers are old "floor standers" with 15-inch woofers that somebody gave me. They are hanging near the ceiling over my couch.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live sound" but I like to use a "hall" or "theater" surround-setting on my AVR to get the "feel" of a larger "live like" space. And I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs. Most of them with 5.1 surround.

 

[beagleman]

My reference point so far is Zu Omen FS speakers. These absolutely crush my RTi6s in just about every possible way--maybe one way they don't is due to the fact that they have a live sound, the upper registers tend to get more colored while my RTi6s keep them more clean, but that's a bit subjective.

That's pretty much it. I'm not in a position to spend too much over $1000 in budget, but I'm curious on what you guys would think would fit the bill? My guess is it's probably going to need to either be a 3-way speaker that has a 10" driver, or perhaps there's a larger 7"-8" 2-way that would work that don't eat up the mids. It's going to need to have a frontward baffle since it will sit in a corner.

If I absolutely positively have to go floor standing, then I can maybe convince the wife, and we'd have to move some things around so that sound wouldn't be blocked (and would need to reposition nearly half of the room) so I would really like to try to avoid that.

I hate to say, but owing the Rti6 and having heard the Zu Omen speakers, if anything the Polks are a far better, more HI FI neutral speaker.

The Zu omen are basically a "LOUD" annoying type of speaker with a very un-natural sound and a LOT of cone break up and basically lacking in fidelity.

Good luck with your "Ideas", but if you consider the Zu Omen a great speaker, sound wise, I think most bets are off as far as getting help in this forum.

 

[beagleman]

If there's a preference for bookshelf loudspeakers without a subwoofer, then how do you go about reproducing the following type of music signal?
View attachment 181435
Its frequency spectrum is shown below. Note that it contains lots of energy around 30 Hz, which most bookshelf speakers won't be able to reproduce at the proper sound level relative to the other parts of the music.
View attachment 181352

Those were unlikely to have been compact bookshelf loudspeakers. At best, using 8-inch woofers, they tend to be heavily rolled off below 45Hz or so. Those using 6.5-inch woofers, which seem quite common these days, roll off even earlier, below 55–60Hz.

The amplifier seems like a nice unit. However, the 50W RMS into 8 ohms is moderate power for the relatively large space the speakers are playing into. Of course, a lot depends on the maximum SPLs that you may wish to listen at.

From a subjective standpoint, those requirements seem almost at odds with each other. The RTi6 probably weren't designed as monitor loudspeakers, but more for home theatre applications. If anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, the RTi6 have a rising high-frequency response, which is not aimed at accurate sound reproduction. This seems to be supported by your comment that "everything sounds pretty clean".

Have you tried applying a little reduction to the high frequencies, using the treble control on your amplifier? Did you like the result on a wide variety of music program material? I'd suggest trying that out over a few days of listening, as the tonal balance will be quite different to what you are used to.

The Zu Omen loudspeakers appear to have very high sensitivity (97dB SPL @ 1m). The drivers needed to achieve that are generally going to end up having cone breakup resonances. Hence your subjective perception that they sounded more colored than your RTi6s.

That may be the only way you are going to achieve the sound quality upgrade that you would like to have. A largish bookshelf loudspeaker with an 8-inch woofer might get you some of the way, but such a design will often have directivity problems through the crossover region between the woofer and the tweeter.

I slightly modded the crossover in my Rti6 and use a sub to fill in below their natural bass response.

With some slight mods, they are close to great sounding in most ways. I agree the upper mids or lower treble is most of the issue. They run about 2.5 db too hot.
Been a while since I modded mine, but they were far too treble rich and forward before my mod.