turntable reviews?

[levimax]

Wow and flutter measuring equipment is probably near extinct these days, since no one outside of TT mfrs would use it. No digital format requires measurements like that, jitter notwithstanding. I doubt if TT reviewers have that equipment.

Amazingly these apps work pretty well. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.AM.AM.RPMSpeed&hl=en_US&gl=US

 

[sergeauckland]

They generally don't have standalone test equipment. Fremer was using that Fiekert app for years. It can be done pretty well by the Virtins software suite and the AP has a W&F function.

The issue is the test records themsleves- nobody makes a decent one anymore.

That's my experience, the limitation on W&F and rumble are those of the test LP, not of the turntable. A slightly off centre record, as they pretty much all are, gives more W&F than the turntable, and rumble from the cutting lathe is never mentioned. As for white or pink noise, they're off colour.

S

 

[sergeauckland]

Amazingly these apps work pretty well. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.AM.AM.RPMSpeed&hl=en_US&gl=US

I've tried that one, and didn't get on with it very well, but WFGUI works well. It matches what my hardware W&F meter says quite closely, so I've got reasonable confidence in it, and it's very convenient.

S

 

[levimax]

I've tried that one, and didn't get on with it very well, but WFGUI works well. It matches what my hardware W&F meter says quite closely, so I've got reasonable confidence in it, and it's very convenient.

S

The problem with WFGUI is then you are back to depending on a test record. The only issue I had with the "spin the phone" apps is that they were a little sensitive to placement .... it worked well when the phone was centered but I had to make something to level the area around the spindle. Amazing to me that it works at all.

 

[Wes]

If the laser turntable (ELP/Finial) had come to market prior to the mass acceptance and uptake of CD, along with onboard realtime pop/click/aberration correction, it may have been a much bigger deal.

When it finally sort-of became available, CD was so established and clearly such a better solution, there was really no point in the laser turntable. In current times, it seems even more ridiculous. The beauty of LPs and playback is the relative simplicity. The laser turntable was the opposite of that.

once you have lasers, it makes sense to read digital pits with them, not analog grooves

 

[anmpr1]

There is a site that invested in a miniature instrument grade accelerometer and contains lots of interesting measurements on tone arms. ... I have one but it is not small enough for this job, maybe woofers (they are quite expensive BTW).

When Sao Win was in business he evidently had access to some sort of seismic vibration platform, and claimed to use that on his SDC and SEC record players.

FWIW, I cycle my players in and out of a couple of systems, as the inclination directs. I recently inserted an SL-1200Mk5 in my main system, and noticed severe feedback oscillation. I had installed a DL-103, and thought perhaps it was defective. I substituted an almost new V-15 III, and the same thing.

Turned out a year or so ago I had installed the KAB 'fluid damper' device (why? ...on a lark, to satisfy a tweako urge) and I discovered that over time the silicone gunk had appreciably lost viscosity. You can't defeat the device, but after removing it the oscillation went away. The hardening gunk was somehow causing oscillation and feedback.

So many variables with record players. Beware of the tweaks.

 

[egellings]

Now, even the lasers are passe'. Just save the files in memory and forget the physical storage medium altogether.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Forget lasers when you can have one of these. Read about here - http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/products/clearaudio-statement-v2-turntable

At 770 pounds, you had better be sure of placement. What amazes me is that any audio company would undertake the design and actually manufacture this. But, folks do buy Ferrari's.....

 

[anmpr1]

What amazes me is that any audio company would undertake the design and actually manufacture this. But, folks do buy Ferrari's.....

If you buy something from Maranello, for your money you'll get a world class driving experience. You'll be part of an historic legacy associated with names such as Enzo, Nikki, Alain and Nigel. You'll have beautiful outward aesthetics and visceral V8 sonics. On the inside you'll get top quality cow along with your carbon fiber. Just because you can, you'll easily find a great looking woman willing to share your company, and with the top down you can enjoy her hair blowing in the breeze as she smiles thrillingly. Should you decide to sell it, value will be retained.

If you buy the Clearaudio Statement, you can invite some of your nerd audiophile friends over, and slum with them. Women won't care about sharing that experience with you, but think about all the fun you'll have adjusting VTA, setting tracking force, and comparing record clamps with your analog buddies. Should you decide to sell it, prepare the bath water.

Of course any man who can afford a Clearaudio can also likely afford an SF90 Stradale, so in that respect he can probably have both. But why would such a man spend time listening to records when he could be out driving with Maria Cucinotta? I guess it depends on whether as a kid you wanted to be Giancarlo Fisichella, or Mikey Fremer, when you grew up.

 

[Bob from Florida]

If you buy the Clearaudio Statement, you can invite some of your nerd audiophile friends over, and slum with them. Women won't care about sharing that experience with you, but think about all the fun you'll have adjusting VTA, setting tracking force, and comparing record clamps with your analog buddies. Should you decide to sell it, prepare the bath water.

Hilarious! Nerd is the word as come to think of it I have done the above with a far far cheaper turntable.

 

[scott wurcer]

Forget lasers when you can have one of these. Read about here - http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/products/clearaudio-statement-v2-turntable

At 770 pounds, you had better be sure of placement. What amazes me is that any audio company would undertake the design and actually manufacture this. But, folks do buy Ferrari's.....

View attachment 144142

A question for the TT experts here. Doesn't hanging that huge counterweight that low create some troublesome mechanical lever effects with respect to lateral vibration?

 

[Bob from Florida]

A question for the TT experts here. Doesn't hanging that huge counterweight that low create some troublesome mechanical lever effects with respect to lateral vibration?

Reading the installation guide is interesting. It looks like there is a lot of magnetic isolation - including the actual platter floats and is also magnetically driven. The mechanical engineer that worked this out had some real fun for sure.

 

[rdenney]

A question for the TT experts here. Doesn't hanging that huge counterweight that low create some troublesome mechanical lever effects with respect to lateral vibration?

Which lateral vibrations? Seismic? Tectonic drift? Volcanic eruptions 12,000 miles away?

The resonance of a 1-meter pendulum on a tall-case clock is 1/2 Hz. That seems to me a bit below the passband.

Rick "thinking that bumping it with your hip by accident could mean no record-playing until next week" Denney

 

[scott wurcer]

Which lateral vibrations? Seismic? Tectonic drift? Volcanic eruptions 12,000 miles away?

The resonance of a 1-meter pendulum on a tall-case clock is 1/2 Hz. That seems to me a bit below the passband.

Rick "thinking that bumping it with your hip by accident could mean no record-playing until next week" Denney

I'm not talking about the primary resonance, Tone arms can have resonances upwards of 100's of Hz depending on their stiffness, etc. while having a well damped 10Hz or so primary resonance. Just wondering.

Scott "remembering the wonderful tone of my Pitman arm separator"

 

[rdenney]

I'm not talking about the primary resonance, Tone arms can have resonances upwards of 100's of Hz depending on their stiffness, etc. while having a well damped 10Hz or so primary resonance. Just wondering.

Scott "remembering the wonderful tone of my Pitman arm separator"

Yeah, I know--I was just making a joke.

It would be funny if tapping the counterweight on that thing with a screwdriver caused it to ring like a bell. If it's all metal, it surely will, so I wonder what additional plastic damping they put in place to control that.

Rick "steel is highly elastic" Denney

 

[egellings]

I wonder what that exotic TT costs. If I sell my house, it could be mine!

 

[NTK]

I wonder what that exotic TT costs. If I sell my house, it could be mine!

https://www.paragonsns.com/products/clearaudio-statement-v2-turntable

 

[egellings]

Wow! That would need more money than my little house it worth!

 

[Bob from Florida]

Yeah, I know--I was just making a joke.

It would be funny if tapping the counterweight on that thing with a screwdriver caused it to ring like a bell. If it's all metal, it surely will, so I wonder what additional plastic damping they put in place to control that.

Rick "steel is highly elastic" Denney

Check out the assembly manual https://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/turntables/CA_Statement_E.pdf

There is a felt matt between each weight. You seriously think for $225,000 they would leave that out! In fact, if you purchase one the factory will send out an expert to assist in setting it up.

 

[Bob_is_here]

There are several measurements that could be performed on a TT, not the arm or the cartridge, just the bit that goes around and the other bits that stops it falling over.

There are the usual rumble; and wow and flutter; but also speed accuracy, stability and isolation.

Cogging was one of those wonderful things that "could be heard" but not measured. In my opinion it was invented by the audio press to explain the "magic" that certain high-end belt drive turntables had but direct drives apparently did not.

In the late 70s/early 80s, so called slotless, coreless DD motors were introduced by most manufacturers. It was not possible for these motors to cog as there were no cores to cog to. This was a golden opportunity and the manufacturers advertised wonderful new turntables using XYZ DD motor that cannot cog in the hope that they could sell new turntables to sucke..., sorry, audiophiles who didn't really need them. The best part was that these cog free motors cost considerably less to make than their predecessors.

For instance, I have had two Pioneer PL-L1000A turntables since new, I used them to compare cartridges. These were very close to the PL-L1000 except that the logic circuitry went from discrete to micro-controller, the arm tube went from metal to graphite to eliminate a problematic midrange resonance, and Pioneer went from their "high-hat" motor (with slots and cores) to their "hanging rotor" motor (no slots of cores). The performance was marginally improved and Pioneer bolted a large piece of 6mm thick steel bar to the sub-chassis in order to balance the unchanged suspension.

Back to the other measurements, a well maintained, late model, direct drive TT will have superior wow and flutter, rumble, speed accuracy and speed stability performance, to that of the Neumann VMS 66, VMS70 and VMS80 series; Scully, Lyrec and Fairchild cutting lathes. Almost all 1970s and later records will have been mastered on either the Scully or Neumann lathes.

Lyrec made the motors that drove both their own lathes and the Neumann lathes, this was a 90 pole Direct Drive synchronous motor (for 33.3 rpm and 50 Hz), it was coupled to the cutting platter, via resilient rubber couplings and a hydrodynamic coupling. After Lyrec stopped making lathes and the motors in the mid 70s, Neumann used Direct Drive DC motors sourced from Technics. So, for all the belt drive turntable fans, I am afraid you are listening to Direct Drive records.

This means that the test discs cut on these lathes have lower performance than the turntable they are measuring. Some research work done on rumble used blank precision surfaces (such as glass) to measure the rumble from the TT.

So we are left with isolation. This was rarely measured back in the day and is dependant on the environment where the TT is tested. Having said that, I remember seeing a review in which the reviewers regularly measured isolation. At that time, the best TT they had measured for isolation was the B&O 4002. If you have ever owned or looked at the manual for one, you will see why this was so.

Well worth reading, "Audible Effects of Mechanical Resonances in Turntables" by Poul Ladegaard - yes, he of the air bearing tonearm - there are copies on the internet. Also worth reading, an interview by the old Audio magazine with the legendary (not said lightly) Doug Sax from Sheffield labs, renowned for their direct cut records. https://www.magneticfidelity.com/sax.shtml