turntable reviews?

[Helicopter]

Nice mate... wish I still had at least one. We talkin' original, Mk2 or newer?



JSmith

MkII, M3D and Mk5.

 

[Taddpole]

How about some wax cylinder player reviews?

 

[BluesDaddy]

How about some wax cylinder player reviews?

You need to start your own thread for it! ;-)

 

[rdenney]

One still has to contend with the gem ploughing vinyl. Do these amazing rigs somehow make the inherent characteristic flaws of the record disappear, e.g. the granular nature of the grooves, groove echo, etc.

The best vinyl rigs don't need to be tested to reveal inferiority to CD. Physics and mechanics analysis has long revealed this.

Well, of course. The point would not be to show that vinyl is as good as CD. The point would be to show what products that are used for vinyl playback actually do.

Yes, there would need to be controls. One significant challenge is that whatever test record Amir used would become...used...after only a few tests. That would need to be controlled, too. Perhaps establishing a "reference" turntable, and then comparing everything to it, using a fresh digital recording of the test record on each test to normalize the results and to show what effects of use the test record is showing. Even that would be interesting to know in some objective way.

Target audience is crucial. The target audience for DAC testing is not, really, those who are prepared to spend $10,000 on a DAC. Those folks are exploring something unrelated to measured performance (and, no, I'm not saying that something is in any way audible). The target audience for nearly all of the DAC testing has been those who just want a good DAC and their price point, whatever that is. So the reference turntable and cartridge need not be the esoteric best available, but rather something of good quality and recognized as such. A Rega Planar 3, for example, with a quality moving magnet cartridge, and maybe also a reasonable quality moving coil cartridge. Amir probably already owns something that would do just fine.

Occasionally, someone in Amir's area might be willing to pop over with their Goldmund Reference and give it a whirl. That would not establish a new reference, but would show how much better it can get--or not. Maybe it would help us clarify the diminishing returns.

Unlike with DACs, turntables have measurable imperfections up to the very best available that are relevant to most users, so we can perhaps start to quantify those diminishing returns. We may discover that there is no diminishing returns trend, as has been the case with DACs--cheap DACs perform as well as (or better than) expensive DACs and the only difference is features, brand value, and packaging.

But I think it is reasonable to constrain the variables, occasionally exploring those orthogonal axes to provide a way for people to estimate how the thing would perform for them. Those orthogonal axes (effects of loading, effects of compliance, effects of damping, effects of antiskate adjustments, effects of tracking error, effects--or not--of VTA, etc.) might prove more interesting than product comparisons.

One good place to start would be with cartridges made available since the days when magazines tested cartridges for things like frequency response.

Rick "Amir would be sensible to avoid this line of testing, but what does that have to do with it?" Denney

 

[Tom C]

How about some wax cylinder player reviews?

The only one I know of is $30 grand
The Archeophone

 

[JeffS7444]

There is also the $1700 1200GR. That is the one to get if you want great tech, and I would recommend that as a reference TT. Made in Japan with outstanding quality.
...
The 1200Mk7 is a DJ version made in Malaysia. I am sure it is good enough, but it has plastic buttons, and it is not designed for absolute fidelity. 1500c is basically a semi auto home version of the Mk7 with a phono pre built in. It is great for what it is but not as a reference TT.

Yes we're supposed to believe that, but so far I haven't seen so much as a multiple-model unboxing video to illustrate the "cheap" Mk 7 controls versus those on the pricier models, and current USA prices are roughly:

SL1200Mk7: $1000
SL1500C: 1200
SL1200GR: 1700
SL1200G: 4000
(cough) ex-DJ SL1200Mk2 found on Craigslist: $400

So far as I know, all have plastic buttons, though when heavily plated with shiny metal, it can be hard to tell they're not metal.

 

[JeffS7444]

Not a downer at all if it's thought out right. An 'engineer's clamp' with single point holding the pillar properly is fine and better for numpties like me, the collet clamp that Notts Analogue use, as this helped otherwise fixed height Rega arms to sing better with no compromise there in my experience.

Do remember, the 1500C is a hell of a lot cheaper than the other 1200 models and where vinyl's concerned, I was trying to keep the deck as good as possible and cheap as possible (Rega for this UK bod is the preferred other option, but US Rega prices are absurd (50% or more higher?), so maybe other home grown alternatives would be better there). I mean, the Fono MM box is £200 here and better than a Mani, but over 'your way' it's $400 or so - madness!

Thanks for the perspective which is so often lacking in this hobby: It's easy to get caught up with the pretty toys and forget about the part where we use them to listen to music!

 

[Taddpole]

The only one I know of is $30 grand
The Archeophone

All the more reason to get it measured.

 

[MattHooper]

While it would be fun to see some turntable-related measurements, aside from all the tricky variables already mentioned there's another issue:

Where would these turntables come from?

Turntables are damned delicate devices that don't take to shipping around very kindly. And the better quality the turntable, the less disposed I'd think someone would be to risk shipping it to Amir. I'd be loathe to undo all the fiddly set up I've done on mine and risk shipping it anywhere just to be tested. Maybe there's braver people than I am willing to do so?

(Or maybe Amir was thinking of just keeping it to measuring cartridges?)

 

[Frank Dernie]

Turntables are damned delicate devices that don't take to shipping around very kindly.

This is true, but based on the history of testing here Amir has been providing a very valuable service to the majority of people looking for good vfm.
On that basis I would imagine the sorts of TT Amir would test would be the low cost ones most of which have been packaged and designed for general use and are appropriately robust compared to the sort of thing you or I may be used to.
These may well have phono stages and digital output included and are entirely appropriate for new buyers who have been used to getting top quality sound from a DAC at a couple of hundred dollars and would thing it ridiculous to spend much more on a record player, I would think.

 

[sergeauckland]

This is true, but based on the history of testing here Amir has been providing a very valuable service to the majority of people looking for good vfm.
On that basis I would imagine the sorts of TT Amir would test would be the low cost ones most of which have been packaged and designed for general use and are appropriately robust compared to the sort of thing you or I may be used to.
These may well have phono stages and digital output included and are entirely appropriate for new buyers who have been used to getting top quality sound from a DAC at a couple of hundred dollars and would thing it ridiculous to spend much more on a record player, I would think.

Frightening to think that a few hundred dollars might be just as good as my EMT or your Goldmund...

S.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Frightening to think that a few hundred dollars might be just as good as my EMT or your Goldmund...

S.

Better Serge!
Except for the fun factor

 

[sergeauckland]

Better Serge!
Except for the fun factor

I actually meant the risk that a $200 turntable might be as good!

S.

 

[Phorize]

Better Serge!
Except for the fun factor

Everyone knows that the only real measure of performance for a turntable is its mass and the quantity of highly polished metal, the reflective properties of which should register at least 500 lumens.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I actually meant the risk that a $200 turntable might be as good!

S.

Ah!
I am very sure not. Particularly the cartridge. OTOH something like a Technics SL-1200 GR will be very close on arm/TT alone.

 

[Soniclife]

While it would be fun to see some turntable-related measurements, aside from all the tricky variables already mentioned there's another issue:

Where would these turntables come from?

Turntables are damned delicate devices that don't take to shipping around very kindly. And the better quality the turntable, the less disposed I'd think someone would be to risk shipping it to Amir. I'd be loathe to undo all the fiddly set up I've done on mine and risk shipping it anywhere just to be tested. Maybe there's braver people than I am willing to do so?

(Or maybe Amir was thinking of just keeping it to measuring cartridges?)

It would be a lot easier, cheaper and safer to ship test records and standardised ADC to TT owners for them to digitise the output from their decks, those files could then be analysed by someone else. I'm sure there are lots of interesting ways to test parts of vinyl playback, but it's what comes out of the phono leads that matters, the same approach Amir has used for testing DACs. This puts the focus on the test records, which is always going to be tricky.

 

[imnotdrunk]

i'd love to see a review of this

 

[rdenney]

i'd love to see a review of this

The heavier it is, the more likely it will use up the compliance on the turntable's suspension system.

Rick "not to mention belt or motor wear" Denney

 

[Robin L]

i'd love to see a review of this

I think it's supposed to suck out the LP's resonant energy via a vortex of dark matter.

 

[Mountain Goat]

You guys are making me want to go dig my turntable out of the box room. This thing was the best tool ever for making mix tapes in the late 80s. I'm sure measurements are completely hilarious, but it sounded good playing Black Flag through my NAD 7140 at the time.