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turntable reviews?

JJB70

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Vibration is important for turntables given their operating principle, unfortunately an obsession with vibration which made sense with turntables carried over to solid state electronics where it really shouldn't be an issue in domestic applications. I used to wonder at a lot of turntable and arm designs and wonder what the designers were thinking of as in some cases they were not especially rational designs if the objective was to control vibration.
 

Bob_is_here

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TLDR. Seriously?
It is up to you to decide what interests you or is too long for you to read. But, unless you are the arbiter of how long a posting should be, or you somehow believe that your opinion is paramount, what was the point of posting TLDN?

Unless, of course, it is an attempt at a put-down, also pointless.

And yes, seriously.
 

anmpr1

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After Lyrec stopped making lathes and the motors in the mid 70s, Neumann used Direct Drive DC motors sourced from Technics. So, for all the belt drive turntable fans, I am afraid you are listening to Direct Drive records.

This means that the test discs cut on these lathes have lower performance than the turntable they are measuring.
A lathe benefits from the speed stability/torque provided by DD. As far as I know, the cutting process is not accompanied by actual playing the master using full range speakers, so acoustic vibration from that source is not present. In a home setting floor and air vibrations can affect the record player. The problem with DD was never 'cogging' or 'hunt and peck' speed variations. It was that almost none of them had any suspension to speak of, allowing mostly LF vibrations to break through.

My 'disco ready' SL-1200 Mk5 uses heavy rubber to help counteract this, and it is better than my SL-1100a in that respect. But lightly tapping on the top plate affects the sound through the tonearm. My 1970 Garrard Z-100 (with the associated wooden base) decouples the turntable from the base unit via four springs. Tapping on the base does not demonstrate this sort of DD acoustic breakthrough. [Garrard's idler reduction drive is, however, nowhere near as sophisticated as Technics quartz PLL, and the Garrard has its own set of inherent sonic problems due to its multiple bearings, gears, pulleys, etc.]

Sao Win and Mitch Cotter got around the typical DD limitation by incorporating the SP-10 Mk2 motor in special bases that damped feedback, either by a spring loaded suspension (SEC-10, and the much earlier DD turntable Win designed with Ira Gale) or, in Cotter's design, brute force mass plus springs (B-1 turntable). The latest and greatest SL-1200 and SP-10 have what is said to be even more sophisticated motors, but appear to use the same sort of rigid base as their predecessors.
 

JP

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As far as I know, the cutting process is not accompanied by actual playing the master using full range speakers, so acoustic vibration from that source is not present.

Typically the cutting engineer will monitor head feedback. However a lathe isn’t remotely as sensitive to acoustic energy in the same way a playback ‘table is.
 

JWAmerica

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I'm a big fan of the Technics direct drive linear tracking turntables. The SL-10 and SL-7 were exceptional. Aside from some sub 20hz rumble, they're very quiet. The SL-7 has less rumble than the SL-10 even.
 

Bob_is_here

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A lathe benefits from the speed stability/torque provided by DD. As far as I know, the cutting process is not accompanied by actual playing the master using full range speakers, so acoustic vibration from that source is not present. In a home setting floor and air vibrations can affect the record player. The problem with DD was never 'cogging' or 'hunt and peck' speed variations. It was that almost none of them had any suspension to speak of, allowing mostly LF vibrations to break through.

I have attached some scans from the Neumann manual, I apologise for the quality.

In the Neumann lathe, the DD motor (Lyrec synchronous in this case) [item4 img 2] sat on the ground (not attached to the lathe chassis) and drove the (heavy) platter via a drive shaft [not numbered img 2 directly above motor] with resilient "rubber" couplings and a thin film fluid coupling. The motor and shaft is better shown in img5 from a Neumann product flier. All of this was to remove motor noise while regulating the speed as much as possible via momentum.

Unlike a turntable, there are considerable forces applied to the lacquer during cutting (enough to flex the sapphire cutting chisel about 5 degrees [Ortofon]), thus the need for considerable momentum. The whole thing is quite massively built with the specs showing the lathe console alone at 680 lbs. However, compared to OTT turntables with massive multiple platters, it is a lightweight, puts those turntables in perspective.

As already said by another poster, the mastering tech would listen by cans to either the tape output or the output from the motional feedback coils, these being the best indicator of what is going on the disc. The masters were not played as such, the cartridge/tonearm on the lathe was used to replay test cuts outside the LP field. Blank tracks were often used to check the quality of the lacquer for noise. The tech also monitored the recently cut groove via an optical microscope, making sure that the groove depth/pitch was not going wrong, although much of this was automated in the Neumann system. These days, with digital, the original lathes have been modified so that the whole process is automated, the mastering tech can go outside, sit in the sun and have a cuppa while he waits for it to do its thing.

In contrast, as they were direct cuts, Doug Sax manually controlled the lathe settings of his (four?) slaved lathes using cue sheets from the rehearsals, hoping that no one got over enthusiastic with the levels and that he didn't run out of space.

As to DD turntables, I have about 14 different models of Denon, Sony, Pioneer, B&O, and Technics DD TTs. I collect linear trackers and apart from the B&O 4002s and some cheap late period junk such as Sharp etc., they are all DDs. The efficacy of the suspension varies. Of the better ones, the B&Os are the best; the Pioneers are excellent; the Sonys are good; the Technics and Denons not so much. Most of the cheap TTs have little to no isolation, although, there are surprises.

The B&Os use a 3 point pendulum suspension, apart from wiring, the platter arm assembly is connected to the plinth and thus the room shelf by
three pieces of wire attached to leaf springs, however, there is no damping. Further, only the top surface of the platter (covered by the record) and the tonearm(s) are outside the plinth.

One of the disappointments of the Ladegaard paper is that it said it was going to investigate platter/mat/record resonance, it really didn't, there is little information on it in the paper. I have not yet found a paper in the AES library that investigates this issue.

Now, wow & flutter and rumble. Ladegaard shows that these measurements can change with different tonearms, all other things being the same. It also shows they aren't very useful. As I said, the paper is well worth the read.

For the record, Neumann's specification for the VMS lathes:
"Wow and flutter content = below 0.05% peak to peak"
"Rumble below 10 cm/s 1000Hz = > 70 dB (DIN 45 539) "

Neumann 1.jpg
Neumann 2.jpg
Neumann 3.jpg
Neumann 4.jpg
Neumann 5.jpg
 
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Bob_is_here

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I'm a big fan of the Technics direct drive linear tracking turntables. The SL-10 and SL-7 were exceptional. Aside from some sub 20hz rumble, they're very quiet. The SL-7 has less rumble than the SL-10 even.

I have two SL-10s, an SL-Q5, and an SL-6 in the album sized, Technics TTs. The iconic SL-10s have become so expensive these days, whereas I got the other two for very little money. To me, they all perform much the same. Did your SL-10s come with a working EPC-310MC? Unfortunately, mine came as usual, de-cantilevered. I missed an SL-10 with working 310MC that was up for sale a mere 100kms away from where I live as I was in New Zealand at the time. The Australian site where it was listed would not allow international sales. By the time I got home, it was gone, only later did I think I should have just sent my brother to go buy it sight unseen - it was $120aud.:(:mad:
 

Frank Dernie

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A question for the TT experts here. Doesn't hanging that huge counterweight that low create some troublesome mechanical lever effects with respect to lateral vibration?
The whole design is a styling excercise, there is no proper engineering in it to isolate properly, the hanging weight does nothing of any value as far as accurately playing a record is concerned.
It uses buzz words like magnetic isolation (which isn't necessarily any good).
As ever the whole thing is bathed in fashion rather than proper engineering.
I don't even like the styling, personally, but I suppose many will.
 

JP

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Now, wow & flutter and rumble. Ladegaard shows that these measurements can change with different tonearms, all other things being the same. It also shows they aren't very useful. As I said, the paper is well worth the read.

I can take an indexed reading from a W&F track 5 or more times in a row and never get the same reading twice.
 

Frank Dernie

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How can we do better ?
What should we measure and how?
I don't think we can really and since the W&F inherent in imperfect records is probably at least as high as most record players the record player is not often the main culprit for poor W&F.
Even the very best record players have quite poor speed consistency compared to CD.
 

Robin L

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I don't think we can really and since the W&F inherent in imperfect records is probably at least as high as most record players the record player is not often the main culprit for poor W&F.
Even the very best record players have quite poor speed consistency compared to CD.
Higher, if you've noticed the way the inherent eccentricity of test discs has to calculated out of W&F measurements. There are no test discs that can match the W&F numbers of a decent turntable.
 

JP

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Thanks to @scott wurcer I mainly use polar plots with a test record I know well. As I only work on DD ‘tables I also use the motor feedback signal. I’ll FM demodulate that in MI which is very helpful, however the W&F measurement in MI with a signal frequency that low is all over the place.
 

JWAmerica

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I have two SL-10s, an SL-Q5, and an SL-6 in the album sized, Technics TTs. The iconic SL-10s have become so expensive these days, whereas I got the other two for very little money. To me, they all perform much the same. Did your SL-10s come with a working EPC-310MC? Unfortunately, mine came as usual, de-cantilevered. I missed an SL-10 with working 310MC that was up for sale a mere 100kms away from where I live as I was in New Zealand at the time. The Australian site where it was listed would not allow international sales. By the time I got home, it was gone, only later did I think I should have just sent my brother to go buy it sight unseen - it was $120aud.:(:mad:

I bought it used on ebay. Had a mediocre Ortofon on it if I remember correctly. I looked at the EPC205C but ended up with an AT-312EP I got a good deal on.
 

anmpr1

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Even the very best record players have quite poor speed consistency compared to CD.
There are no test discs that can match the W&F numbers of a decent turntable.

Two turntables I've lately used are a Garrard Z-100 (synchronous motor, no electronic servo speed correction, but idler reduction drive coupling the platter to a tapered pulley) and an SL-1200 (quartz PLL). In practice I can hear no wow and flutter or other speed related artifacts using commercial pressings from the '50s to the present.

In fact, I can't recall a time when I was really noticing speed related variations on any record player, from early idler Garrard/Duals, AR belt drives and knockoffs like the Thorens, and later Japanese DD, both with and without quartz regulation. I think that since at least the mid 1960s (when I became interested in the hobby) the issue of audible speed related artifacts in the turntables themselves have been moot. I'm not talking about tonearm differences, or acoustic feedback related problems. I only mean the perception of speed variation over time.

Those with better ears for this sort of thing will no doubt think and act differently, but my eyes roll when I hear people complain about the 'audible' effects of DD cogging v speed consistency with belt drive.

From my perspective the basic limiting 'sonic' factor when using records are records themselves, not so much what they are played on.

As an 'old timer', the only thing that would interest me now would be a modern high quality record changer, since I like to put a couple of discs on the Garrard when I'm casually listening, doing something else. Or in order to stack my 45rpm EP sets. Convenience. But very few people are interested in buying a record changer anymore, so they will likely never be made ever again; if you want one you have to buy second hand, hoping for the best.
 

Robin L

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Two turntables I've lately used are a Garrard Z-100 (synchronous motor, no electronic servo speed correction, but idler reduction drive coupling the platter to a tapered pulley) and an SL-1200 (quartz PLL). In practice I can hear no wow and flutter or other speed related artifacts using commercial pressings from the '50s to the present.

In fact, I can't recall a time when I was really noticing speed related variations on any record player, from early idler Garrard/Duals, AR belt drives and knockoffs like the Thorens, and later Japanese DD, both with and without quartz regulation. I think that since at least the mid 1960s (when I became interested in the hobby) the issue of audible speed related artifacts in the turntables themselves have been moot. I'm not talking about tonearm differences, or acoustic feedback related problems. I only mean the perception of speed variation over time.

Those with better ears for this sort of thing will no doubt think and act differently, but my eyes roll when I hear people complain about the 'audible' effects of DD cogging v speed consistency with belt drive.

From my perspective the basic limiting 'sonic' factor when using records are records themselves, not so much what they are played on.

As an 'old timer', the only thing that would interest me now would be a modern high quality record changer, since I like to put a couple of discs on the Garrard when I'm casually listening, doing something else. Or in order to stack my 45rpm EP sets. Convenience. But very few people are interested in buying a record changer anymore, so they will likely never be made ever again; if you want one you have to buy second hand, hoping for the best.
There is an LP by the guitarist George Cromarty, about 19 minutes a side. Ten years ago, maybe a little more, I was transferring the LP to a digital format in the hope of being able to reissue the recording commercially. My click repair got rid of most [not all] audible surface defects on my mint copy. The project was abandoned in the hope of finding a better source. Yesterday, looking up the artist on YouTube, I found that LP posted as a single file, so no demarcation of tracks. Not an official issue. Initially I thought [hoped] that the source tape was found. Backgrounds are close to silent, the usual surface noise issues were dealt with very effectively. However, moving the cursor to the 19:00 mark I heard the congestion I always hear with IGD. One would think a recording of a solo acoustic nylon strung guitar with limited dynamics would not be a challenge to cut to vinyl. If this was an orchestral recording with the climax of the finale in the last track on an LP side over 19 minutes in length, the distortion would be awful, obvious, in your face. This recording has the textures thickened as the stylus approaches the deadwax.

No matter how fancy the turntable design, linear tracking or no, that IGD is baked into every LP I've heard. Maybe with an LP that was initially two-sided being transferred to four and cut at 45, the IGD would be minimal and probably inaudible. But, seriously, why go to all that trouble and expense when that LP was cut from a digital file anyway? LPs that are cut the way LPs are intended to ["LP" stands for "Long Play", right?] will always result in audible IGD to anyone not trying to convince themselves that LPs are SOTA. The audible effects of IGD will always be greater than the audible effects of "Cogging" [can't recall ever hearing that with my DD 'tables], though I have owned out-of-spec 'tables that have the speed drift over time [Philips 212, I'm looking at you]. The worst speed variations I've heard were with rim-drive 'tables. I somehow didn't get rid of the cheap, plastic and dependable belt driven Panasonic turntable that my wife has had for over 30 years. Amazing how well it functions considering it would have been considered a throw-away 'table even in its own time.
 

DVDdoug

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Seeing this topic pop-up again I remembered that Knowzy.com has LOTS of turntable reviews & recommendations. Well, maybe "summaries" rather than "reviews". He doesn't do measurements and he's focused on low to mid-priced turntables for digitizing vinyl.

BTW - I've never actually heard wow or flutter from a turntable or tape machine unless it was broken.
 

rdenney

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Seeing this topic pop-up again I remembered that Knowzy.com has LOTS of turntable reviews & recommendations. Well, maybe "summaries" rather than "reviews". He doesn't do measurements and he's focused on low to mid-priced turntables for digitizing vinyl.

BTW - I've never actually heard wow or flutter from a turntable or tape machine unless it was broken.
Some people are much more sensitive to it than others. Despite my musician training (such as it is), I am not particularly sensitive to it.

It's a little like inner-groove distortion. I don't hear that, either, and if I ever meet Robin in person, I'm going to insist that he does not teach me how to hear it.

Rick "ignorance is bliss" Denney
 

anmpr1

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The worst speed variations I've heard were with rim-drive 'tables. I somehow didn't get rid of the cheap, plastic and dependable belt driven Panasonic turntable that my wife has had for over 30 years. Amazing how well it functions considering it would have been considered a throw-away 'table even in its own time.
Long term speed drift would likely be noticeable for someone with perfect (or even really good) pitch hearing ability. On piano music or classical guitar I don't discount someone hearing flutter on a old changer..

Garrard idler drive was strictly mechanical, with no electronic feedback speed compensation. In order to offer variable speed control a hard rubber idler rides up or down a tapered brass (I think it's brass) shaft. Over the course of a disc you can watch the strobe, and speed is definitely not constant. I don't notice it on music, but then again I always add a little delay/reverb when playing my guitars, so I guess I naturally expect some of that sort of thing. And don't get me started about my use of overdrive distortion... :cool:

FWIW, for anyone interested in an old changer, I'd advise mechanical idler or belt drive over changers featuring electronic speed regulation. Electronic speed regulation requires the ability to troubleshoot and replace circuit boards when they go bad.

Belts for most old turntables are easier to source than idlers, the latter being more difficult to find NOS.

Garrard idler drive units up through the SL-95 used a fixed cartridge holder insert, and do not allow for any adjustment of overhang/offset. So that could be an issue if accurate overhang/offset is important to you. The C3 Z-100 cartridge holder allows for some back and forth and side to side adjustment (in order to zero out the tracking geometry); it might fit the other models, so could be a possibility. Forget about VTA adjustments.

Garrard Synchro-Lab motors last forever, but changer gears and slides will have to be disassembled, cleaned, and regreased. Not hard, just time consuming. American made BIC changers are simpler, mechanically much smoother in operation, but used a lot of plastic parts for gear mechanisms, whereas Garrard used metal. How well plastic will survive after 45 years of use is anyone's guess. A replacement part means scavenging a similar era deck.

Technics made a DD changer, but they are pretty rare, and not cheap on the second hand market. I don't know anything about them, however if they are built like the SL-1200, and don't use plastic gears, those could be a nice option.
 
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