The company I worked for took my patent benefit from the employee ( this chicken, bedawk!) and the employee (this chicken) got a pat on the back and a free burger. I basically did not benefit at all. After that, I said 'F' it and resolved to never do any effort that could result in a patent working for a company. Money doesn't talk; it swears, stifling innovation in the proses.
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@GuidoK, years ago I was contemplating pursuing a loudspeaker-related patent, and received this advice from Earl Geddes, who holds multiple patents. His advice might be applicable to your situation:
He told me that loudspeaker designers are so independent-minded that they are looking to do something original rather than looking to copy what someone else is doing. He told me that in his experience patenting something loudspeaker-related was a complete waste of money because nobody in the business was of a mindset that would prefer to copy someone else rather than do something original. My guess is that a similar mindset prevails in the world of turntable accessories.
Unless the rules have changed, you could file a provisional patent for a relatively small fee and then you'd have a year to make up your mind. I've done that twice and both times decided against filing a design patent.
Edit - Oops, I meant to say "... a utility patent." It's been a while and I got the terminology mixed up.
He told me that loudspeaker designers are so independent-minded that they are looking to do something original rather than looking to copy what someone else is doing. He told me that in his experience patenting something loudspeaker-related was a complete waste of money because nobody in the business was of a mindset that would prefer to copy someone else rather than do something original. My guess is that a similar mindset prevails in the world of turntable accessories.
Unless the rules have changed, you could file a provisional patent for a relatively small fee and then you'd have a year to make up your mind. I've done that twice and both times decided against filing a design patent.
Edit - Oops, I meant to say "... a utility patent." It's been a while and I got the terminology mixed up.
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OP
GuidoK
Member
- Thread Starter
- #26
I think that's good advice. Maybe if I decide to continue to go onto production first get a provisional (or complete) dutch patent (which from what I can see is much cheaper) and then maybe go on.
The only other thing is, is that this device is quite unique and has no equivalent on the market that does the same (or anything that comes close imho), but/yet fairly easy to build for someone reasonably smart, even though it's an electromechanical device. It can be cobbled up pretty much by stuff/modules bought on alie, a soldering iron and a drillpress. I did that the same way for my little prototype which works great. I didn't even use my lathe or mill...
A large part of the potential customer base is.... well.... a member here and on other audio fora I imagine (people who like to tweak). If I launch a patent, I obviously have to describe what's in the device and how it works. A substantial part of the potential customer base will make it for themselves.
From some other patents I've read that it's a real art to describe what's in the patent but not directly emphasize what's the real trick to the invention, although it's still in there (you know, certain details mention trivially either in words or drawing where it in reality plays a huge role to the final workings). I don't know if I'll be thàt good
(or if the design lends itself for that...)If I encase everything and don't patent it, manufacture parts that give a more 'bespoke' look, it might be a bit more difficult and maybe takes more time for some actually figures out what's going on and how it can be constructed fairly easily.
You know, a bit the 'security by obscurity' principle in software (I know, that's not really security...)
Most of them tend that way with that crowd, and would probably need to be if its something "new" whatever it is you think you've discovered. Hard to know since you can't really say otoh, but vinyl is just overdone at this point. You have silly crap like weights these days
OP
GuidoK
Member
- Thread Starter
- #28
But do you think that the examples that I explicitly mentioned in my OP are silly?
Like that headshell, the wallyskater or the way you can dynamically adjust azimuth on that tonearm?
Because it falls more in line with stuff like that than a weight. It's a technical device.
What do you mean with vinyl is overdone? I don't understand.
Your list: fozgo meter/feickert protractor/nasotec headshell/wallyskater/zerostat
Never heard of a fozgo meter so suspect that's just nonsense.
Feickert protractor is different in what specific ways from others? I didn't try and look up....
Nasotec headshell haven't heard of particularly but am aware of other attempts at aligning headshells across a vinyl
I have a zerostat, it failed long ago.
Do you have something viable/real or just want to sell to the typical audiophile (i.e. clueless)?
Ever considered to ask AI (chatgpt)So I invented/developed something turntable related. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with it, that is bring it to market or not.
But my main question is: should I patent it? It's an 'audio trinket' that helps with the adjustment of turntables/vinyl playback. Obviously I can't tell here what it's exactly is, but it's something in the line of a fozgo meter/feickert protractor/nasotec headshell/wallyskater/zerostat etc. There are loads of these things that audiophiles adore
My question/doubt mainly is: is getting a patent even worth it nowadays?
If I look at comparable stuff, like that fozgo meter or feickert protractor or wallyskater: those things have never been patented. And yet they are not imitated and sold by many (especially a wallyskater is easy to copy, cobbled from some rods, a ruler and a piece of string).
And the nasotec swing headshell has a patent, but it's only a south korea patent. That means that anyone can make one and sell one as long as it's not in south korea (which I can't imagine would temper down global revenue immensely...)
Even if I look at companies like Clearaudio, they have some newer patents regarding their bearings I believe, it's only a german patent.
And if I look at for instance the Reed 3P tonearm with on the fly azimuth, which I think is one of the most original ideas in turntable/tonearm technology in this millenium, I also can't find any patent for that (nor their other arms with unique features).
And those features are also not copied by other manufacturers.
Why is that?
Are these features/trinkets too much of a niche thing that the chinese don't even bother with them? Or are serious audiophile manufacturers too proud and decent not to incorporate ideas of others?
Obviously a patent costs money to apply and maintain, and an aweful lot of efford to describe within good legal text with correct drawings etc etc and maybe you need to get legal advice that adds up very quickly.
And I also wonder...if mr. fozgometer (or mr nasotech etc) had a patent, and saw chinese knockoffs on aliexpress, it must be immensely difficult to start a lawsuit in china.
So I wonder what might be the reasons for those other (small) audiophile companies not to patent their ideas?
Does anyone here have an audio patent to their name? (and that the assignee is not some multinational that pays the legal fees, does all the lawsuits if that's necessairy etc)
Obviously I don't want anybody else patenting my idea and benefit from it, so I'm not really sure what to do. The chances that I'm putting it on the market is maybe 25%, so fairly slim. I don't work in the audio branch.
For what it's worth i did an it came up with interesting alternatives.
ChatGPT:
Thanks for sharing such a thoughtful and well-informed question. You're asking something many independent inventors struggle with: is the cost, effort, and complexity of a patent worth it, especially in a niche, passion-driven market like high-end analog audio?
The Core of Your Question:
You’re not asking if your idea is patentable—you believe it is (and from your references, it probably is). You’re asking if it’s strategically worth pursuing a patent, when:- The market is niche,
- Copying is rare despite lack of patents,
- Enforcement is expensive and often impractical,
- You may not even bring it to market.
Why Many Audiophile Inventions Aren’t Patented:
- Low Commercial Scale = Low Risk of Imitation
- Products like protractors, VTF gauges, or alignment tools are too small a market for copycats to bother with. A few thousand niche users aren’t enough for most manufacturers to clone.
- Unspoken Respect or “Gentleman’s Code”
- In high-end audio, brands trade on reputation. Most serious companies won’t steal ideas because the customers buying a $300 protractor or $5K tonearm care about quality and authenticity. It’s brand trust, not just functionality.
- Patent Costs vs. Revenue
- A decent patent (US or EU) can easily cost $10K–$20K or more when done properly. For niche gadgets, that could exceed total revenue.
- Enforcement Is Practically Useless
- Especially for small inventors. Even ifyou see a Chinese knockoff on AliExpress:
- Patent enforcement in China is expensive, slow, and often fruitless.
- Amazon takedowns are sometimes possible if you have a patent, but even that is a headache.
- Especially for small inventors. Even ifyou see a Chinese knockoff on AliExpress:
- Design Complexity = Implicit Protection
- Sometimes, things like the Reed 3P tonearm aren’t copied because they’re too hard to manufacture properly or too complex to replicate without deep know-how, not because they’re patented.
So... Should You Patent It?
Given what you shared, here’s a decision-making framework:Don’t Patent If:
- You’re not likely to commercialize it (you said 25% chance).
- The market is small, and you’re okay with staying a cult/niche product.
- You’re not prepared to spend >$5K upfront and possibly more.
- Your invention is complex enough that others would struggle to replicate it anyway.
Consider Patent-Lite Alternatives:
- Provisional Patent Application (cheap placeholder for 12 months, gives you “Patent Pending” status).
- File a design patent (if it has a unique look), which is cheaper and easier than utility patents.
- Keep it as a trade secret, especially if it's a method or calibration process that’s hard to reverse-engineer.
- Sell or license to a brand—a Clearaudio-type brand might love to license it and deal with legalities themselves.
Definitely Patent If:
- You plan to build a real business or license it.
- It has broad applicability beyond the audiophile niche.
- It’s trivially easy to copy once seen.
- You’re emotionally invested in controlling the idea long-term.
One Other Smart Thing to Do:
If you really don’t want someone else to patent it, but don’t want to commit to a full patent, consider this:- Publish a "defensive publication"—a public writeup with just enough technical detail to make it prior art.
- You don’t get exclusivity, but nobody else can patent it after that.
- You can post it on a personal blog, GitHub, or even in a niche audio forum with timestamping.
Would you like help drafting a short provisional application, or maybe a defensive writeup if you decide to go that route?
4o
YesChatGPT:
Great — let’s walk through what you’d need for both options, and you can decide which fits better:Option 1: Provisional Patent Application (PPA)
A PPA is a low-cost way to secure a filing date and say “patent pending” for 12 months. It’s not examined by a patent office, but it gives you time to gauge interest, build a prototype, or pitch to partners without losing priority.What to include:
- Title (clear, descriptive)
- Background (problem it solves)
- Summary of invention (how it works, why it’s better)
- Detailed description (step-by-step, including variations)
- Drawings or diagrams (optional but very helpful)
Option 2: Defensive Publication
This is for when you want to prevent others from patenting it, but don’t need to own the rights.How to do it:
- Write a public post/document including:
- Title and your name
- A clear technical description
- Optional diagrams/photos
- Post it somewhere publicly timestamped (like a blog, Reddit, GitHub repo, Notion page, or dedicated IP archive)
Next Step:
If you describe the invention to me in general terms (even with redacted or vague parts), I can help draft either:- A simple PPA text that you can file at the USPTO yourself (for about $75),
- Or a defensive disclosure document that’s ready to post publicly.
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Some enjoy being creators, even though doing so can eat up an inordinate amount of time and resources. Ime there is something good for the soul about giving the best ideas you have the best chance you reasonably can of coming to life, so to speak.
And some enjoy being critics.
Well that's the first step in selling audio bullshit!
If it seemed anything actually useful I'd be glad to eat my words
OP
GuidoK
Member
- Thread Starter
- #35
That is exactly the tone I mean.
Any specific reason to specifically not mention the wallyskater or the azimuth on the fly on the reed 3p?
If you want to really discuss, it might be helpful to be complete. Maybe do some googling what the fozgometer does (it's basically a subtracting VU meter), read the thread why I wrote that that is basically surpassed instead of speculating it's workings is 'just nonsense' as you're then basically saying azimuth adjustment is 'just nonsense'.
In the end the usefulness of the device is not important for the topic and the discussion at hand. Usefullness is in the eye of the beholder. To my 40 year old neighbour that lives across the street and goes jogging every saturdaymorning in her pink joggingsuit, everything we do and say here is probably utterly useless.
This topic is about whether or not potentially patenting an idea/device is the right way to go. If you say that it's (the device) 'anything useful' that means it's anything useful to you. Who cares what you find useful?
LOL thanks for clarifying the humor/bullshit involved. Selling/profiting from the bullshit seeing how well it does has been a constant temptation, but I like to sleep at night.
Don;t think that. If the invention has any decent market there will be copies. They ignore patents and sell in other (no patent) markets. Wold wide patents coverage is expensive on a ongoing basis and rules governing what is novel and patentable vary in different locations, as do fees, best left to the big players.
I worked in the drilling industry for well over 25 years and was around tool manufacture for 50+ years. The best thing anyone can do is keep their ideas to themselves and if anyone thinks patents or copyrights are enforceable, think again. The person holding the patent is the one who bears the litigation costs. It's not magically enforced by the patent police. One company I was working for was a German company and held many German patents, BUT they still were forced to let many of their ideas and patents be copied or go bankrupt trying to defend the patent. Even if they win in a German court of law, it is not enforceable in Country-X, and if you want to enforce it, once again, you bear the cost. Most of the drilling tools that are copied from German designs seldom hold up like the original.
The materials and how they are processed are the real mysteries. Swedish, German, Austrian, and Finnish materials are "different". So is Spanish Damascus for swords, knives, armor, shotguns for birding or big game (nitro express). 50-250K for a single weapon is not too uncommon. The French developed musket-proof armor, too.
Not to effective against a 20-pound cannonball though.
The best way for tool makers is to keep the blueprints is to bury them in a hole and keep their mouths shut. I have several tools that were copyrighted in the least expensive way possible. Mail a copy of the BP to yourself through the US/Canadian/Mexican mail, and don't open it. You can do it more than once if you make modifications, and it is proof of concept with upgrades.
BTW, few people will take your good idea about stereo stuff and TT tonearm in particular and then manufacture it. Tooling is a lot more technical than people think. No one is going to go after the onesie, twosie guy for making a copy for their own pleasure.
As for your idea, do your own work or you will lose the whole thing. Having someone else do the machining is proof enough that it wasn't your idea to begin with, unless you are the machinist. I worked in machine shops that didn't share how they did things between stations. The plans/CnC programming was NOT held in a central archive either. There are still machinists around who are 100% non-CNC for a reason. Their machines go with them where they work, along with their staff and usually handwritten notes, if there are any notes at all. Gunsmiths in particular.
I worked for a few medical doctors and surgeons in the 70s-80s, they got pretty picky about handmade tools.
Here is the thing about other people. Don't pay any attention to those who think they know how the world works. They don't. It's very obvious some people are there to do one thing, rain on your parade and be complete party poopers. They usually last 5 minutes around guys like me, because I just read their crap or listen to it ONE time.
There is a reason for that behavior, and it's not normal.
I admire your "go get it attitude, BUT NEVER be discouraged by other people and their BAD attitudes. Usually, the BAD attitude comes from the depth of the bottle they are consuming. ASR also has the wonderful Ignore Button.
Turntables are a mystery and are still being made just to piss other people off. Personally, I like the idea, but then I ain't no part pooper either!!
Be of good cheer, "Party on Dude"
Regards
You have gotten some excellent responses here. You are located in the NL?
As already mentioned, depending on what it is there may be a very low risk of people copying the product.
Or . . . as With the Fozgometer, the reason there is no patent might be for that it may not be patentable. OR, you can hide the sensitivity and means of measurement in a PCB or IC so don’t need to go to the expense.
The Fozgometer has see to be under the name Fosgate (who it’s named after) and it’s now Musical Surroundings out of California, and a major attraction importer/distributor of turntables. They but it from Fosgate after he passed away?
The main problem is always going to be distribution whether you have a patent or not. The Fozgometer is clearly a joint effort with Analog Productions out of Kansas and Musical Surroundings.
What you need to do, in my opinion, is to attempt to partner with a major turntable distributor in the EU or, if even Music surroundings in US it what your are proposing wouldn’t compete with something they already sell, like the Fozgometer.
If it would compete with something they already make or distribute you need to find another distributor that doesn’t offer a class/family of product you are proposing.
Go to the next major high end audio show and start networking, OR, get a reliable manufacturers rep with proven track record in consumer electronics in EU to do it.
As already mentioned, depending on what it is there may be a very low risk of people copying the product.
Or . . . as With the Fozgometer, the reason there is no patent might be for that it may not be patentable. OR, you can hide the sensitivity and means of measurement in a PCB or IC so don’t need to go to the expense.
The Fozgometer has see to be under the name Fosgate (who it’s named after) and it’s now Musical Surroundings out of California, and a major attraction importer/distributor of turntables. They but it from Fosgate after he passed away?
The main problem is always going to be distribution whether you have a patent or not. The Fozgometer is clearly a joint effort with Analog Productions out of Kansas and Musical Surroundings.
What you need to do, in my opinion, is to attempt to partner with a major turntable distributor in the EU or, if even Music surroundings in US it what your are proposing wouldn’t compete with something they already sell, like the Fozgometer.
If it would compete with something they already make or distribute you need to find another distributor that doesn’t offer a class/family of product you are proposing.
Go to the next major high end audio show and start networking, OR, get a reliable manufacturers rep with proven track record in consumer electronics in EU to do it.
