(turntable related) audio patents: are they worth it?

[GuidoK]

So I invented/developed something turntable related. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with it, that is bring it to market or not.
But my main question is: should I patent it? It's an 'audio trinket' that helps with the adjustment of turntables/vinyl playback. Obviously I can't tell here what it's exactly is, but it's something in the line of a fozgo meter/feickert protractor/nasotec headshell/wallyskater/zerostat etc. There are loads of these things that audiophiles adore . My question is not regarding whether or not my invention is patentable, as it's very unique and addresses an aspect from a different (and imho obviously superior...) angle, so given enough efford and money I'm sure I can get a patent.
My question/doubt mainly is: is getting a patent even worth it nowadays?
If I look at comparable stuff, like that fozgo meter or feickert protractor or wallyskater: those things have never been patented. And yet they are not imitated and sold by many (especially a wallyskater is easy to copy, cobbled from some rods, a ruler and a piece of string).
And the nasotec swing headshell has a patent, but it's only a south korea patent. That means that anyone can make one and sell one as long as it's not in south korea (which I can't imagine would temper down global revenue immensely...)
Even if I look at companies like Clearaudio, they have some newer patents regarding their bearings I believe, it's only a german patent.
And if I look at for instance the Reed 3P tonearm with on the fly azimuth, which I think is one of the most original ideas in turntable/tonearm technology in this millenium, I also can't find any patent for that (nor their other arms with unique features).
And those features are also not copied by other manufacturers.
Why is that?
Are these features/trinkets too much of a niche thing that the chinese don't even bother with them? Or are serious audiophile manufacturers too proud and decent not to incorporate ideas of others?

Obviously a patent costs money to apply and maintain, and an aweful lot of efford to describe within good legal text with correct drawings etc etc and maybe you need to get legal advice that adds up very quickly.
And I also wonder...if mr. fozgometer (or mr nasotech etc) had a patent, and saw chinese knockoffs on aliexpress, it must be immensely difficult to start a lawsuit in china.
So I wonder what might be the reasons for those other (small) audiophile companies not to patent their ideas?
Does anyone here have an audio patent to their name? (and that the assignee is not some multinational that pays the legal fees, does all the lawsuits if that's necessairy etc)
Obviously I don't want anybody else patenting my idea and benefit from it, so I'm not really sure what to do. The chances that I'm putting it on the market is maybe 25%, so fairly slim. I don't work in the audio branch.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut, but I will respond anyway.

In my experience, almost no one has success selling an idea, or just a patent. You sell a product, or more often, a whole business that sells a product. Having patents in that scenario is very important, but they are a part of the overall valuation. Unfortunately, getting a product or a business off the ground takes a lot of time and capital, precious commodities both. And many companies have policies of not entertaining pitches of third party ideas because (damn lawyers!) it usually leads to later claims of infringement / misappropriation.

But sometimes you don't have a choice, and building up a product or a business just isn't in the cards. In that case, pitching your idea without a patent makes you a sitting duck. Good luck getting a company you're trying to pitch out of the blue to sign an NDA.

Hire a competent patent lawyer; this isn't something you can do in your garage. I eat crappy patents for lunch. I've invalidated dozens upon dozens.

 

[GuidoK]

But I'm not interested in getting a patent for the sake of selling it.

 

[PatentLawyer]

You don't want to sell a product? If you just want to tinker in your garage with it, then no reason to get a patent.

 

[GuidoK]

Yes I might want to sell the product, but not the patent.
I don't think selling a patent (this potential patent) would be worth it.

My main concern/doubt is more if the cost/time/hassle of getting a (global or at least EU/US) patent is gonna be worth it for such a nice product, as most products/ideas in this sector/range are not patented and are not really getting copied (based on the examples I posted, I'm sure there are more).

 

[kemmler3D]

is getting a patent even worth it nowadays?

As you note, the Chinese question is a major one, and you hit upon the key issue right away. It's considered virtually impossible to enforce IP rights in China, where the knockoffs are expected to come from either way.

Overall @PatentLawyer has good thoughts here based on my experience in patenting (or not patenting) audio stuff.

A patent is worth it if you think it's reasonably likely that A) you're going to build a real business around this thing and B) someone will knock it off and C) they are going to steal enough business from you that having a patent could pay off and D) you don't have other, better ways of protecting your sales.

Trademarks are easier / cheaper to get and can serve a similar purpose to patents in some markets, audio is arguably one of them.

The chances that I'm putting it on the market is maybe 25%, so fairly slim. I don't work in the audio branch.

Then I would put the odds that patenting this invention is worthwhile as a fraction of 25%.

Does anyone here have an audio patent to their name?

Almost, (it has to do with alarm clock dock features, which is an audio product, but the patent doesn't cover the audio functionality) but not one like this. It never did me any good. The likelihood that someone steals your invention, and changes little enough about it, AND they're based in a country where you can enforce, AND they sell enough to be worth taking to court (or even just sending a nasty letter to) are not super high.

If you find that you start selling this and it looks like it's going to turn into a multi-million dollar business, by all means I think you should kick off the patent process as a matter of course. But I don't think you should do that until you can pay the lawyer out of your revenues. As you note it's not super likely someone is going to patent this out from under you, or even knock it off, before it becomes successful.

 

[Timcognito]

As someone who has 111 patents and counting, written draft for most of the specification for many of them and been in a couple of successful litigation's, I know the process well, not the law, it's complicated. A good search is probably worth the expense if you really feel the idea is really a game changer. It's hard to believe that something mechanical or electrical that has really not changed much in the last half century has a an undiscovered revolutionary invention backwards compatible to vinyl records, but who knows. It could have prior art, if not than a market analysis is called for. Filing costs are not that expensive, drafting and prosecution costs are not that cheap unless you form company and have stock to use as compensation. Do not disclose the idea to anyone without a nondisclosure agreement and do not publish any description of the apparatus. If some of it is a method that part of it is not patentable in much of the world.

 

[Petrushka]

So I invented/developed something turntable related. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with it, that is bring it to market or not.
But my main question is: should I patent it? It's an 'audio trinket' that helps with the adjustment of turntables/vinyl playback. Obviously I can't tell here what it's exactly is, but it's something in the line of a fozgo meter/feickert protractor/nasotec headshell/wallyskater/zerostat etc. There are loads of these things that audiophiles adore . My question is not regarding whether or not my invention is patentable, as it's very unique and addresses an aspect from a different (and imho obviously superior...) angle, so given enough efford and money I'm sure I can get a patent.
My question/doubt mainly is: is getting a patent even worth it nowadays?
If I look at comparable stuff, like that fozgo meter or feickert protractor or wallyskater: those things have never been patented. And yet they are not imitated and sold by many (especially a wallyskater is easy to copy, cobbled from some rods, a ruler and a piece of string).
And the nasotec swing headshell has a patent, but it's only a south korea patent. That means that anyone can make one and sell one as long as it's not in south korea (which I can't imagine would temper down global revenue immensely...)
Even if I look at companies like Clearaudio, they have some newer patents regarding their bearings I believe, it's only a german patent.
And if I look at for instance the Reed 3P tonearm with on the fly azimuth, which I think is one of the most original ideas in turntable/tonearm technology in this millenium, I also can't find any patent for that (nor their other arms with unique features).
And those features are also not copied by other manufacturers.
Why is that?
Are these features/trinkets too much of a niche thing that the chinese don't even bother with them? Or are serious audiophile manufacturers too proud and decent not to incorporate ideas of others?

Obviously a patent costs money to apply and maintain, and an aweful lot of efford to describe within good legal text with correct drawings etc etc and maybe you need to get legal advice that adds up very quickly.
And I also wonder...if mr. fozgometer (or mr nasotech etc) had a patent, and saw chinese knockoffs on aliexpress, it must be immensely difficult to start a lawsuit in china.
So I wonder what might be the reasons for those other (small) audiophile companies not to patent their ideas?
Does anyone here have an audio patent to their name? (and that the assignee is not some multinational that pays the legal fees, does all the lawsuits if that's necessairy etc)
Obviously I don't want anybody else patenting my idea and benefit from it, so I'm not really sure what to do. The chances that I'm putting it on the market is maybe 25%, so fairly slim. I don't work in the audio branch.

I have no expertise, but I worked for a company that patented an important device for hospital beds. The patent was broken due to one trivial seeming word in the description. Defending a patent is thankless unless you have hundreds of thousands to throw at it.

 

[GuidoK]

Defending a patent is thankless unless you have hundreds of thousands to throw at it.

Yes I understand when push comes to shove the exact legal phrasing makes all the difference.
But this is not such a product. None of the products/innovations I mentioned here sell for millions annually I estimate.
But my main question or what surprises me is is how in reality similar recent innovations in the turntable world are hardly protected by patents and yet not copied.
I mean clearaudio has just a few german only patents, and like I said Reed has no patents at all that I could find (or that they write about), and they have some very innovative features that no manufacturer seems to copy.
Is there something that I'm overlooking specifically regarding a company like clearaudio only protecting their innovations with a german patent?
I understand that if you patent something in germany, no one can patent that anywhere else (or at least, I assume that), but they can still copy it and sell it outside germany.
Can that first part be the reason? That said, once you sell it (so the product/idea is in the open), no one else can patent it either.

BTW I was mistaken about the nasotec headshell, that has a patent pending for the world. Apparently they took the path of south korean patent->us patent->world patent over a period of 10 years. Yet that also wasn't copied until they were validated.

 

[kemmler3D]

similar recent innovations in the turntable world are hardly protected by patents and yet not copied.

Are you sure that they are recent innovations, or just slight improvements on old tech? Turntables have been around for a long time and fundamental improvements haven't happened in decades at best...

 

[GuidoK]

Are you sure that they are recent innovations, or just slight improvements on old tech? Turntables have been around for a long time and fundamental improvements haven't happened in decades at best...

That piece of sentence mainly pointed (in my head) to the Reed 3p's azimuth contraption like I described in my first post. I haven't been able to find a patent for that, and I'm pretty sure it also has never been sold before. So to me I'm sure, unless you know of a patent regarding that

And regarding my other examples (mainly that fozgometer and the wallyskater): I'm pretty sure they're not protected by patents.
And the wallyskater also has been too long on the market to still have a valid patent. (I don't know how long the fozgo meter is on the market, but I expect also 2 decades or even more....)
However they are not copied and sold commercially. The fozgometer is not a really crucial device as what it does can easily be done with some free audiosoftware (any wave editor really...), but that wallyskater is the only one in its kind (it measures antiskating force from the tonearm's AS system) and very easy to copy (basically a string, a small ruler and some plastic rods on a pastic baseplate) and yet it's not copied by anyone. And still costs $300+
Isn't that odd?

 

[egellings]

I have a work related patent on an improvement to a self reseting fuse, and it went nowhere. The fuses are for protecting low voltage light current DC circuits in a larger electronic assembly. The problem with that kind of fuse is that when it cools down, it resets, the faulty circuit opens it again, and this goes on for as long as power is present. The repeated recycling of the current could eventually overheat and damage the circuit. My invention was to include a resistor across the fuse, in close physical proximity (eventually built right in). When the fuse opened, the resistor was then placed in-circuit, and the small amount of heat it generated kept the fuse from resetting. The resistor got only moderately hot, and it presented no fire hazard at all. I couldn't buy a cup of coffee with the patent, which was as useless as a screen door on a submarine.

 

[Timcognito]

That said, once you sell it (so the product/idea is in the open), no one else can patent it either.

Once you publish it, even you can't patent it. It is the public domain and becomes unprotected prior art available for anyone to copy and use. Do not post any pictures, descriptions or drawings. If you have someone build it, do so with a nondisclosure agreement and retain any drawings and fixtures.

 

[Philbo King]

I worked in an aerospace company and got a few patents there. The corporate stance on patents were that they are a strategic tool for creating and holding market share, regardless of whether the idea was actually useful. I heard that it cost ~$300k to get the patent (10 years ago!) for attorney work and prior art search. So if you don't foresee making a lot more than that from it, it probably isn't worth pursuing.

 

[JP]

Having it is one thing. Enforcing/defending it is another. @SIY can give you real advice on that one.

 

[threni]

As I understand it it costs a fortune to get a patent. Then, assuming you have one, and assuming it's clear (to you, or whoever) that someone has infringed on it, what are you going to do about it? Do you have the money to take on a large company? What if they're based in a country which doesn't care for IP laws? And if you're not planning on making money on it why do you care whether you have a patent or if someone infringes on it?

 

[Salt]

You might ask or look at the threads launched by @smowry who has some thoughts about driver designs ....

 

[kemmler3D]

it's not copied by anyone. And still costs $300+
Isn't that odd?

Not necessarily... nothing is stopping anyone from knocking off the wallyskater, but is it worth knocking off? We don't know the size of the market for these things, but I imagine it's pretty small.

 

[Timcognito]

The chances that I'm putting it on the market is maybe 25%, so fairly slim. I don't work in the audio branch.

I think this sums it up. Patents are expensive. So there is opportunity in filing a provisional patent which can be incomplete and IIRC you have one year to complete it with complete filing. This would allow you to put stake in ground at a lower cost and pitch the concept to potential interested investors or purchasers. You need patent firm or lawyer to help. I was only involved in this once and it was some time ago so get some real advice.

 

[GuidoK]

I couldn't buy a cup of coffee with the patent, which was as useless as a screen door on a submarine.

So you were also the assignee/beneficiary of the patent?
But indeed unless a patent is a huge success in a fairly short time I imagine it's not worth much. That's why I don't want to pursue it for the sake of selling a patent.

Once you publish it, even you can't patent it. It is the public domain and becomes unprotected prior art available for anyone to copy and use.

Yes that's what I've understood already. However, once you have a patent somewhere, you can apparently still expand that into other locations.
That's I think the main reason why well known audiophile turntable companies like clearaudio and transrotor do have some patents, but only (in this case) in german.
So if their invention becomes a success and is copied across the border, they can still apply for a patent over there, and once that has been granted (also takes time) they can ask/enforce the competing company to stop making that product. So getting a local patent something like a 'deterrent' for other companies to not get things in their heads.
(this might only work for the more serious western companies; some chinese guy in shenzen probably won't care....)
That said, I imagine getting a new patent in another country (so a EU patent or US patent or WO patent) probably takes so long (I imagine at least 2-3 years) that in that time your product has fulfilled most of the market already (either by you or by your competitor). If you launch a product, the years that sells most are the first few years of course.
Even though in vinyl playback not that much is happening, but it is somewhat of a hyped product. Now it's very popular (and has been for about 10-15 years), but no one knows whether or not it'll be popular in 10 years or that only the die hards then still remain.

Having it is one thing. Enforcing/defending it is another.

Yes. If it's copied in china or some other place remote, a lawsuit....I wouldn't even bother.
This is not a product that's gonna make millions in profit.
If I compare it to audio trinkets I mentioned above like that fozgo meter, a wallyskater or that nasotec headshell, or a really expensive/fancy protractor, the upper price for an audiophile trinket is gonna be like €500 (which is roughly €400 before VAT). And then, maybe I sell 1500 pieces over 5 years if it's really succesful (I can't imagine the stuff above sells better). If I'm lucky I sell half of it myself through a webshop and the other half through retailers, that want at least a 75% margin (so for them the price will be roughly €225)
So 750 pieces for €400 totals €300k, 750 pieces for €225 totals ~€170k, so a total of €470k total turnover in 5 years. Say the build cost with fancy packeaging are €75 (might be cheaper in this case, but if you want it fancy a lot of manual labour comes into play etc), that's already €112k, so that leaves €358k. And this is all taking into account that you already have a place from which you can run this business....
If you then look at how much time you have to put in for marketing (going to audio shows), setting up a webshop, paying Micheal Fremer for half an hour of his time to put in a good word etc etc, there's not gonna be much left. Not for a potential lawsuit by a long shot.
So this is certainly not a way to get rich fast...loosing money on it or having to put in an extreme amount of work for a moderate return is a more realistic scenario....