Turntable playing with same cartridge

[JeremyFife]

Why not visit your nearest Rega dealer and have a listen? I'm sure they would be happy to demonstrate the difference in resolving power between the 3 and the 6. If you don't hear enough of a difference to justify the price difference, then you should feel more confident in having made the right choice. I used to own a Planar 3, a long time ago. It was a fine turntable. But there are better turntables out there, and they usually cost more money.

That's part of the problem though, isn't it. We know (plenty of evidence) that sighted listening comparisons are essentially useless because cognitive bias takes over. What dealer would give you a proper blind, level matched, comparison? They don't ... so we hear that the more expensive TTs are better (falsely)

 

[mike70]

That's part of the problem though, isn't it. We know (plenty of evidence) that sighted listening comparisons are essentially useless because cognitive bias takes over. What dealer would give you a proper blind, level matched, comparison? They don't ... so we hear that the more expensive TTs are better (falsely)

they know what to say and then you receive the suggestion on what to listen for.
dealers are masters in brain tricks ... only pumping up the volume a few dbs with the "that's better" turntable, and you're done.
prepare your wallet

 

[mike70]

but I live in Brazil

Então somos vizinhos, eu moro em Montevidéu, no Uruguai
Seja bem-vindo companheiro. (falo algo de português, hehe)

 

[AaronJ]

I just couldn’t bring myself to own a Rega due to the speed issue. It’s 2025 for crying out loud. This has been a non-issue for like 50 years! Everything about Rega’s turntables is almost purposefully impractical. How is there no adjustable VTA at this price point? How are the feet not adjustable?! They’re happy to sell a box to fix the ridiculous speed issue.

 

[mike70]

I just couldn’t bring myself to own a Rega due to the speed issue. It’s 2025 for crying out loud. This has been a non-issue for like 50 years! Everything about Rega’s turntables is almost purposefully impractical. How is there no adjustable VTA at this price point? How are the feet not adjustable?! They’re happy to sell a box to fix the ridiculous speed issue.

they were (Rega and all the "hi end" turntable manufacturers) relentlessly critical to Technics in the 80s about their direct drive quartz lock motor.
The japanese engineers didn't argue, they worked.
Today Rega (and other belt drive manufacturers) adopted the quartz lock system ... and even some of them the direct drive motor (VPI as an example).

Marketing, sells, marketing, sells, ... the truth is secondary.

 

[Chrispy]

I just couldn’t bring myself to own a Rega due to the speed issue. It’s 2025 for crying out loud. This has been a non-issue for like 50 years! Everything about Rega’s turntables is almost purposefully impractical. How is there no adjustable VTA at this price point? How are the feet not adjustable?! They’re happy to sell a box to fix the ridiculous speed issue.

I went direct drive long ago due to inability of many belt drives to maintain proper speed let alone have an adjustment for such. Are the tone arms intended only for certain cartridges?

 

[lini]

Today Rega (and other belt drive manufacturers) adopted the quartz lock system ...

Quite late, one might think - considering that Philips already offered their first belt-drive model with quartz-referenced speed control and actual platter-speed sensing ca. 47 years ago. That was the AF977. Should have been introduced fall 1978, iirc.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[board]

Do you still have those recordings?

Yes, I still have them.

 

[board]

So, I have an Elys installed today, and I was thinking about the ND5, but after reading a lot of people saying I should go for the ND7, I'm not sure. Now you're suggesting an Audio Technica. Which one would be equivalent to an ND7, and wouldn't have much trouble with the installation? Or since I have an Elys, would it be silly to make this switch? Sorry for so many questions.

I haven't been able to find any measurements of the frequency response of the ND5 or ND7, but the Elys has a drop followed by a small spike around 10-14 kHz.
I used to have a Rega Exact, which is somewhat similar to an Elys, but less muddy, and the spike is bigger, giving it a clearer while still relaxed sound.

I then switched to an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, which is a favourite of many. When I first listened to it I was smitten right away.
It's slightly more expensive than an ND7, and it's also an MC cartridge, but it is known for having a relatively accurate frequency response with a light dip in the lower treble and a relatively small spike around 10-14 kHz, and a very smooth but detailed sound with low distortion.
I also have an Audio Technica VM750SH, which I like with many older records. Its frequency response is similar to the AT33PTG/II but with a bigger spike, which gives this perception of more "air".

I have also tried the OC9 and ART9 from Audio Technica, and I definitely preferred the AT33PTG/II. The OC9 was harsher and brighter, which it's also known for. The ART9 just didn't seem to track as well as the AT33PTG/, so I heard more noise between tracks. However, this can also be because of how I set it up though, or because the ART9 doesn't have the light dip in the lower treble, so then the noise in that region is more audible.

The AH-95 is a cheaper model, but as far as I know it performs very well for its price. The one called SH at the end of the model name has a shibata stylus and also a bigger spike in the high frequencies, thus giving more "air". The one called ML has a microline stylus.

The flattest frequency response in any cartridge I have tried was the Nagaoka MP-500, and I have seen others find similar results. As far as I know it also has low distortion.
It's an MM and not hyper expensive, although not a cheap MM.
Their cheaper models have less flat frequency responses.
I liked the MP-500 very much, but for some reason I wanted a bigger spike in the high frequencies to have a bit more "air", so instead I chose a Goldring Elite, but in the end switched to the AT33PTG/II.
If your goal is the flattest frequency response possible, chose the MP-500.

As for Ortofon, I haven't tried the 2M series myself, but I've heard recordings, and to my ears they sound harsh and overly bright. I've tried Ortofon's Quintet Black though. It seemed okay, but I wasn't smitten by it, which I know is a very subjective assesment.


As you can see, a lot of subjective preference goes into choosing a cartridge.
Although I can't say anything about the ND5 and ND7, I think you can find a good cartridge based on price and what kind of specific sound you're looking for: Completely neutral (MP-500), smooth yet detailed (AT33PTG/II or VM-95 (perhaps the ML version)), darker and less harsh (Grado, Rega Exact, etc.), or very detailed and a bit bright (various Ortofon).

 

[board]

The usual answer is spacers, or a threaded adjuster (Origin Live, Michell, or a cheap clone from eBay)

If the VTA has to be adjusted a lot this is not an option, but a possibly cheaper way of changing it is to get a thinner anti-static mat (equivalent to raising the tonearm) or a thicker mat (equivalent to lowering the tonearm).
In my own case I have just put a small washer under each attachment point between the tonearm and the plinth.

 

[Abdo]

I haven't been able to find any measurements of the frequency response of the ND5 or ND7, but the Elys has a drop followed by a small spike around 10-14 kHz.
I used to have a Rega Exact, which is somewhat similar to an Elys, but less muddy, and the spike is bigger, giving it a clearer while still relaxed sound.

I then switched to an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, which is a favourite of many. When I first listened to it I was smitten right away.
It's slightly more expensive than an ND7, and it's also an MC cartridge, but it is known for having a relatively accurate frequency response with a light dip in the lower treble and a relatively small spike around 10-14 kHz, and a very smooth but detailed sound with low distortion.
I also have an Audio Technica VM750SH, which I like with many older records. Its frequency response is similar to the AT33PTG/II but with a bigger spike, which gives this perception of more "air".

I have also tried the OC9 and ART9 from Audio Technica, and I definitely preferred the AT33PTG/II. The OC9 was harsher and brighter, which it's also known for. The ART9 just didn't seem to track as well as the AT33PTG/, so I heard more noise between tracks. However, this can also be because of how I set it up though, or because the ART9 doesn't have the light dip in the lower treble, so then the noise in that region is more audible.

The AH-95 is a cheaper model, but as far as I know it performs very well for its price. The one called SH at the end of the model name has a shibata stylus and also a bigger spike in the high frequencies, thus giving more "air". The one called ML has a microline stylus.

The flattest frequency response in any cartridge I have tried was the Nagaoka MP-500, and I have seen others find similar results. As far as I know it also has low distortion.
It's an MM and not hyper expensive, although not a cheap MM.
Their cheaper models have less flat frequency responses.
I liked the MP-500 very much, but for some reason I wanted a bigger spike in the high frequencies to have a bit more "air", so instead I chose a Goldring Elite, but in the end switched to the AT33PTG/II.
If your goal is the flattest frequency response possible, chose the MP-500.

As for Ortofon, I haven't tried the 2M series myself, but I've heard recordings, and to my ears they sound harsh and overly bright. I've tried Ortofon's Quintet Black though. It seemed okay, but I wasn't smitten by it, which I know is a very subjective assesment.


As you can see, a lot of subjective preference goes into choosing a cartridge.
Although I can't say anything about the ND5 and ND7, I think you can find a good cartridge based on price and what kind of specific sound you're looking for: Completely neutral (MP-500), smooth yet detailed (AT33PTG/II or VM-95 (perhaps the ML version)), darker and less harsh (Grado, Rega Exact, etc.), or very detailed and a bit bright (various Ortofon).

Thanks for your reply and help. The AT33PTG/II seems very interesting, but the problem I see is how to install it correctly on the Rega Planar 3. It all seems a bit confusing, and I haven't found anyone posting anything about how to configure it correctly. If you have any information, I'd appreciate it.

 

[lini]

(...) The flattest frequency response in any cartridge I have tried was the Nagaoka MP-500, and I have seen others find similar results. As far as I know it also has low distortion.
It's an MM and not hyper expensive, although not a cheap MM. (...)

Actually that's an MI, with the MP prefix standing for moving permalloy.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[board]

Thanks for your reply and help. The AT33PTG/II seems very interesting, but the problem I see is how to install it correctly on the Rega Planar 3. It all seems a bit confusing, and I haven't found anyone posting anything about how to configure it correctly. If you have any information, I'd appreciate it.

I actually also have a Rega RP3 and use it with the AT33PTG/II.
What is it that confuses you?
I haven't had any issues at all.

I printed a protactor from a programme where you put the data into the programme, and then I made sure to adjust the printout to be exactly the right size. I printed it on a big sticker and put it on a piece of cardboard around the thickness of a record and then installed the cartridge with a loupe.

 

[board]

Actually that's an MI, with the MP prefix standing for moving permalloy.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Ah, yes. You're right. I completely forgot about that.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Thanks for your reply and help. The AT33PTG/II seems very interesting, but the problem I see is how to install it correctly on the Rega Planar 3. It all seems a bit confusing, and I haven't found anyone posting anything about how to configure it correctly. If you have any information, I'd appreciate it.

Not sure what is the problem. I installed mine as any other cartridge*,is it so that Rega has abnormal Dimensions / height for cartridges?

* I use a strip of a credit card to be able to set azimuth carefully. Google Wally Tools Fulcrum…

 

[board]

TLDR: man says the two turntables are made from different materials and the P6 comes with electronic speed control. Asserts that they sound different even with the same cartridge. Provides no evidence, of any sort ...

A few years ago someone put up a video comparing an RP3 with an RP6 with the same cartridge. For some reason the first few seconds of the RP6 was louder, but otherwise they sounded identical to me. I might still have the downloaded recordings, but I think the video is gone.

 

[rdenney]

This sort of thing has been in my mind since I joined ASR, interesting to see how the thread develops.

Vinyl was the only valid option when I started in hi-fi (first love!), I'm happily digital now. I still spin the odd record for fun, I still buy the occasional record (for reasons that mostly escape me). I might let it go one day, but I'm pretty content with that occasional dalliance.
I kind of believe in the 'some vinyl masters are better' angle - but I'll cheerfully concede that there's no real evidence.

Everything to do with vinyl seems to be hopelessly entangled with cognitive bias, so much so that I've given up on finding objective information. The Cartridge measurement thread here is brilliant, but impenetrable and often just demonstrates sample variation - it's still a good read though.

Can we break vinyl reproduction down to: most TT's are not broken (good enough speed control and hold the stylus in the right place) so then the cartridge response seems to be key - plus stylus profile (perhaps?). Oh, and MC is a waste of time.

Won't make me upgrade my vinyl setup, it's already outrageously expensive compared to the good parts of my system, but really interesting to know

You speak for me. "Occasional dalliance" describes it perfectly. I also am hopelessly attracted to beautifully made machines, and while CD players hide their mechanical brilliance (or the cheapness of the materials used to achieve it), turntables and tonearms are often beautiful works of mechanical art. When guests look at the hodgepodge of electronics in my system, they are generally unimpressed despite that every device was curated for its unique qualities. But they openly admire even my plain and plebian Thorens TD-166.

The cartridge thread is also often missing important information about loading, which affects frequency response. That said, I'm going to try to contribute to it given that I now have a turntable and cartridge not represented there.

For me, the effects of compression have increased over time, but there was a sweet spot when systems had improved enough to take advantage of the full capability of the vinyl medium but before the desire to increase average loudness with respect to peak loudness led to excessive compression. That sweet spot seems to have been in the 70's or so, at the peak of vinyl development before CD's were introduced. Some of my 70's-era LPs are damaged, but for many it's no problem for me to listen through the noise and enjoy the drier sound that was more popular in those days. I've always found it ironic that CD have this large dynamic capability but so little of it gets used for many genres of music.

I have experienced listening tests that revealed differences, but they were not controlled and therefore not instructive. I would not expect an improvement changing only the turntable between a P3 and a P6 to survive a blind-test comparison, assuming the tonearm and cartridge are held constant and assuming both are running the same speed (David says this is a grand assumption, and I believe him). But changes in cartridges and cartridge loadings affect spectral tilt and frequency response in audible ways, and mistracking is always audible. So, whatever mechanics of the turntable and tonearm that prevent mistracking and alignment errors is probably going to improve the system audibly. Cartridges and tonearms are more closely part of the transducer system, and the limitations of vinyl technology bring those differences in the transducer system into the range of audibility. But I would look for test results rather than opinions to choose between cartridges, and tend to avoid paying for those that remain untested. To wit: If I was buying a cartridge today, it would probably be an AT-VM540ML. The AT440ML I'm using on the Thorens has been excellent at reducing surface noise from LPs that have been overplayed using fatter styluses, so I'm a fan of the microline designs. My new-to-me Linn Axis has a Goldring-made Adikt cartridge with a Gyger2 stylus, and I'm curious to compare it to the 440, though comparisons are difficult and the Linn Basic Plus tonearm should be a step up from the TP11 on the Thorens.

Rick "likes playing with old film cameras, too" Denney