JeremyFife
Major Contributor
Is this a real, objectively material, thing or another facet of vinyl mythology? How much measurable difference does VTA adjustment actually make?
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Turntable playing with same cartridge
- Thread starter Abdo
- Start date
I use spacers myself, it's not complicated, just something else to consider upfront.
DSJR
Master Contributor
NOOOOO!!!!!
Have you ever directly compared a 3 with a 6?
Firstly, the 3 runs fast as all Regas without the external Neo supply seem to do (I checked every one I sold back in the day and have spot-checked others in the years since). The Neo offers fine tuning of running speed (can't remember if the original external generated 24V/50Hz supply offered this) and it's worth it for that alone in my opinion!
Second, the added platter mass of the Planar 6 does seem to help, whether it's in reducing wow figures, or the extra mass aiding the cartridge in reproducing bass and any semblance of 3-D off the vinyl better. A Planar 3 sounds pretty 'mechanical' and 'one note' in the bass even compared to 'digital' and it takes a lot (their wall bracket, maybe a mat change - shock-horror) to minimise that. It's NOT the tonearm either as I've used RB arms, especially the 300 series, on other decks to great effect...
Lastly, their new home-made pickups have yet to be properly tested, so all we seem to have right now is subjective comments (the old Elys 2 and Exact 2 were pretty low bar, even when first launched forty years or so ago as they exhibit quite strong response anomalies). £200 is a lot to spend on a bonded elliptical when one can get a VM95 SHIBATA for less money, a bonded elliptical VM520 for two thirds the price or less, or a 'micro line' VM540 which may be possible under £200 here now while stocks last (no idea if AT will continue with it now thew VMx740 is the price the 540 used to be).
The SL1500C with 2M Bronze stylus upgrade added is making such an incredible case here I have to say - sorry Rega, but it's true, even in the home UK market, as prices have gone up a bit too regularly recently...
As for VTA on an RB arm, remember the tube is lightly tapered, so should always appear to be slightly tail-down. Also, many diamond tip rake angles seem(ed) to be set a little too fiercely (often around 28 degrees rather than the more EU usual 20) and distortion could sometimes be slightly tamed with the arm set slightly low at the pivot end. I was told decades back the 1/10g difference in tracking downforce could be equivalent to around 2mm pivot height difference, this with a medium compliance stylus assembly. The better pickups today from Ortofon and AT, have enough tracking margins for this to be experimented on perhaps. I never got on with the spacers myself, despite having a collection in my toolbox (and a newly acquired mint RB 300 to use them with if necessary once I get a deck sorted for it)
I'd also suggest seeing if Rega still have the extra-heavy tungsten counterweight available, If a (what should be a great) VMx740 was used, I think getting the counterweight as near to the pivot as possible (minimising inertia) would be as beneficial today as it was in the days of the inferior Linn K9 (AT93/95 body with metal mount and 'vital' true-elliptical stylus).
Last edited:
Do you have the measurements that shows the great improvement in sound ?
I made digitalization with different styluses and the difference is there (90% in ABX comparator) , microline is a real improvement over elliptical.
I made the same thing with different (decent) turntables and I can't find a difference.
My conclusion is: stylus is an improvement, turntables after some decent construction
.. no
Marketing material is blah blah to me.
Direct drive usually have a better speed control, absolutely, but ... Is a pitch difference that "normal" people will ignore. The question is a difference in sound quality. I personally bought Technics over Rega, but, I cannot say Rega "sounds bad".
DSJR
Master Contributor
Different styli making a difference is absolutely true, but have you directly compared a Planar 3 to a 6? it doesn't look as if you have, as the speed error on the 3 is VERY audible, even if you don't have perfcect pitch (I don't, but subjectively at least, a 3 sounds 'faster' almost as if it's tripping over itself in comparison with a deck running correctly). The other thing is that a Rega 2 and 3 tends to blur rapidly played notes together a little more, say a run of piano notes. Sorry chap, I spent decades doing these comparisons and I ain't making it up. The current '3' is a tad more refined than the model was forty plus years ago and it does sound funky with a 2M Bronze fitted to the RB330, but if you 'feel' the music as well as 'analyse' it, I think you'd hear the slight improvement a 6/Neo adds (by the way, I get loads of 'feeling' from music played via digital sources, so none of the vinyl vs digital nonsense please
).Yes, vinyl is a huge set of compromises and the final compromise will be with the purchaser and how well they use digital as maybe a main source.
To close, if I was looking at a Rega deck rather than a Technics at the grand or so level, I'd not look lower than a 6 today based on my decades selling, setting up and yes, servicing the brand, but I'm cursing that it's now £1260 plus cartridge rather than £995 or so.
somebodyelse
Master Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 6,254
- Likes
- 6,083
I don't have any figures to say for certain either way. The angle of the stylus must change with adjustment of tracking force within the manufacturer recommended range (static compliance of cartridge and a short cantilever) so having the arm parallel to the platter can only be right for one tracking force. I've not done the calculations to see how much the angle varies, or how much adjustment you would need at the pivot end to compensate, but I suspect it's more than is often provided.
that stuff only worths with fine line (or better) stylus cuts, with conical / elliptical, it doesn't matter.
With fine line cuts, set the tonearm parallel to the platter and forget it ... if the cantilever / internal motor in the cartridge is right, you'll be in the SRA angle specified by the manufacturer for the best compromise, otherwise ... there's only a worthless hassle.
Vinyl can be a crow's nest if we go into all the "hi end" mantras and marketing talking. Get clean records, fine line stylus, decent turntable, some basic settings ... and enjoy the music.
akamatsu
Active Member
Here's a video pointing out the design/engineering differences between the 3 and the 6, with comments on the sound quality.
JeremyFife
Major Contributor
Sensible advice, but still with open questions;
Why a 'fine line' stylus (backed by evidence / measurements)
What constitutes a 'decent' turntable?
It's interesting, and instructive, to cut through all the nonsense. I agree with you btw, I just don't know how to answer those questions
JeremyFife
Major Contributor
TLDR: man says the two turntables are made from different materials and the P6 comes with electronic speed control. Asserts that they sound different even with the same cartridge. Provides no evidence, of any sort ...
- Thread Starter
- #31
exactly, no test. And also if you look at the p3 it has an elys 2 capsule and the p6 has an exact... as I always suspect I think that only the capsules can produce different quality, the rest I think you will hardly be able to hear anything audible.
akamatsu
Active Member
Why not visit your nearest Rega dealer and have a listen? I'm sure they would be happy to demonstrate the difference in resolving power between the 3 and the 6. If you don't hear enough of a difference to justify the price difference, then you should feel more confident in having made the right choice. I used to own a Planar 3, a long time ago. It was a fine turntable. But there are better turntables out there, and they usually cost more money.
- Thread Starter
- #33
Yes, I understand your suggestion, but I live in Brazil, and unfortunately, the dealership here is very bad and they have no patience whatsoever for doing this. It takes a lot of seriousness to demonstrate this, as you need to have both, set up the same way and with the same cartridges, in the same room, etc. Here in Brazil, these things are complex... unfortunately... the scams are rampant. Now, after learning a lot from this forum, I only trust my own sound room because I know exactly what I've put in there and can compare. I have a reputable supplier who sends me equipment here to my house for a week to test. If I like it, I stay... otherwise, he'll take it back without a problem. But he doesn't work with Rega because turntables are a very small audience these days, and he explained to me that keeping stock ends up being unfeasible. So he only works with products that have a higher turnover.
DSJR
Master Contributor
Can you get a Technics 1500C for similar or less money than a Rega 6 and can your supplier lend you one to rty? If your local samples come with a 2M Red as 'ours' do, you're golden, frankly. If funds allow, fit or later change to a 2M Bronze stylus, site the thing carefully as you would a Rega and just use the bloody thing as a tool to play records with!
The main advantage with a Rega is the RB330 tonearm, which is amongst the best there is technically, even if it lacks VTA and a fancy-foo finish. Even the exit wores these days look posher than they used to, so no complaints there in an 'eye-fi' sense. As for the drives, the 6 allows for their better belts, which apart from reducing wow a bit I gather, increase the speed errors further on the lower models, making the Neo supply essential.
The Youtube vid was by 'Cheshire Audio,' a friendly enough chap but totally subjective in his appraisals, I feel (he was raving over a FIFTEEN GRAND Naim preamp not that long ago...). Mind you, by the now dismal standards of many dealers in the UK, at least he seems to know his way around a turntable should it need a service or cartridge change, which is more than can be said for other dealer-chains which seem to have Rega agencies here and there...
somebodyelse
Master Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 6,254
- Likes
- 6,083
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to, but would be interested in the details of how much difference it makes with a file line, and how to get it right.
akamatsu
Active Member
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think you can go wrong with the Planar 3. At it's price point, I don't know of another turntable that can beat it. Rega are a real company staffed with engineers who know what they are doing.
DSJR
Master Contributor
I couldn't find it last time I looked, but there was a comparison of the different tips now used in the AT OC9 series of moving coil models. Playing some simple music with delicate cymbal-work, the difference between the naked elliptical, fine line and Shibata were clearly audible even to me. The elliptical on its own was okay, but the 'ML' version had more 'snap' and 'sparkle' for want of a better word. Since many standard vinyl records round the hf impact off a bit too much, I regard this as a benefit myself, although users of 'flat earth 80s' speakers designed around a sludgy source, may not care for that, especially if they 'still' hate digital!
best of the three was the Shibata tipped one, having a little less subjective 'bite' but with great delicacy-of-touch in the cymbals. Having heard the late jazz drummer Alan Ganley almost playing 'tunes' on a pair of brushed cymbals depending on where he delicately stroked them, I really loved that cartridge's sonics.
DSJR
Master Contributor
SOMEONE has got to try an AT LP5X with VM95ML in it. It's WAY cheaper than a Rega 3 (can be got for £400 or so over here with a 95ML stylus factored in), but offers direct drive, a perfectly acceptable tonearm (accepting it's not as inert as the RB330) and similar siting requirements.
ok ... i made digitalized versions of some tracks with elliptical and microline styluses.
i recognized less distortion ('s' and 't' much more clear) and better high frequency (best cimbals / chorus echoes / decaiment) in that files with the ABX comparator in Foobar player (i had 90% success).
The microline stylus have a greater lifespan and better sound.
Decent turntable? ok, that's more "complex", but i mean, something with a decent plinth (not a plastic toy), a decent tonearm and a decent motor system.
Any Technics direct drive (1500C, mk7, ...), AT LP5, ... as an example. Maybe something cheaper can bring the same results (maybe), but i really think that something more expensive only takes more money from your bank account.
JeremyFife
Major Contributor
Nice, thanks
Similar threads
