Turntable playing with same cartridge

[Abdo]

Hello friends, I'm not a turntable expert.

But I'm curious after reading so much on this forum about cables, amplifiers, etc.

From my understanding, the construction of the styluses can make a difference in the quality of the information sent to the amplifiers.

So, I'd like your opinion... would a Rega Planar 3 and a Rega Planar 6 using the same ND5 stylus offer any improvement in quality?

Thanks ...

 

[mike70]

Short answer? no

You'll have much better results with a planar 3 + nd7 cartridge (fine line stylus) than a planar 6 + nd5 cartridge (elliptical stylus)

Choose wisely based on data and not on dealer talk.

 

[Chrispy]

They appear to use the same tonearm, so highly unlikely any significant difference, if any at all.

 

[DVDdoug]

The only times I've heard a difference from the turntable itself it was a cheap "record player"" that introduced "rumble" into the audio, Or when a belt or drive wheel was slipping and causing speed variations.

Yes, the cartridge (and its stylus) can make a difference in frequency response but that can also be tweaked with tone controls or EQ. And some cartridges are more prone to tracking distortion so some are better on on "hard-to-track" records.

Now, I only use my turntable to occasionally digitize a record and since the analog-vinyl days I've upgraded my turntable only once after upgrading from a "cheap record changer", But I (foolishly) upgraded the cartridge several times. Foolish because the REAL limitation was the records, and I knew that because there were some better ones (I assume modern vinyl is better and more consistent) and I felt like I was "cheating" or that my system was inadequate if I had to use tone controls. I got over that when I got my 1st CD player and I realized that records were never going to sound as good as digital.

 

[mike70]

I realized that records were never going to sound as good as digital.

not never ... Loudness war and insane compression in digital mastering can reverse the situation.
Vinyl doesn't support that manipulation (it have a different mastering process, even the source is the same digital mix) so some records sounds better than digital.

And the difference between a basic stylus and a fine line / micro linear is huge, not only an equalization. Better frequency response and lesser distortion is a blessing.

In the end, you can have a very satisfying sound from the format, choosing wisely and with a proper cleaning process, that facet is fundamental. Dirty records / stylus is the road to hell.

 

[board]

Hello friends, I'm not a turntable expert.

But I'm curious after reading so much on this forum about cables, amplifiers, etc.

From my understanding, the construction of the styluses can make a difference in the quality of the information sent to the amplifiers.

So, I'd like your opinion... would a Rega Planar 3 and a Rega Planar 6 using the same ND5 stylus offer any improvement in quality?

Thanks ...

I actually did even better than this:
I have a Rega RP3 from 2014 (with a RB-303 tonearm), and then a few years ago I bought a Rega Planar 8 with the RB-880 tonearm (with the option to return it, luckily). I then recorded some records from my RP3 onto my computer. I then put my cartridge onto to the Planar 8 and recorded the same records.
Except for the speed difference, I couldn't make out any difference.
I also used the plugin CurveEQ, which draws an orange line that shows the difference in EQ or frequency response between two songs, and when I loaded recordings from the two different turntables it just showed a flat line, meaning there was no difference.

I've also found that there tends to be, or at least can be, a bigger difference between two copies of the same cartridge than between turntables, if they're of a certain quality at least.

 

[Abdo]

Thanks everyone for your input.

That's exactly what I was expecting: people spending thousands of dollars on turntables. I've always believed that the key is a needle and a clean record, and obviously a well-adjusted tonearm for alignment and needle weight.

Why change my P3 to a P6, P8, or P10 if I'm going to use the same needle, an ND7? I think it's an unnecessary waste of money on turntables.

I was thinking about the ND5, but with this information, is it better to go with the ND7? Or would anyone do something different?

 

[DVDdoug]

not never ...

Usually I try to be more careful with my wording. "Better sound" is subjective and some people like the sound of vinyl and that's OK with me. But technically (noise, distortion, and frequency response*) digital is better.

On vinyl you can always hear backgroiund noise between tracks and sometimes during quiet parts. And the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" can sometimes be very bad! I could live with the low-level noise on a good record (if I had to) but the clicks & pops always annoyed me.

Loudness war and insane compression in digital mastering can reverse the situation.

Vinyl doesn't support that manipulation (it have a different mastering process)

LPs sometimes often use the same master, or sometimes there is additional mastering-processing to accommodate vinyl. Sometimes the vinyl is less compressed but you can't count on it.

There's no limit to how much you can compress with either format. Of course you can put a test-tone with zero dynamics on a record.

There are loudness limits but they aren't as strictly defined as digital... As you make vinyl louder it may become harder to track with some cartridges and the grooves get wider so you can't fit as much music on a side.

And simple "DR" measurements can be misleading because vinyl cutting and playback boosts some peaks and reduces others without changing the sound of the dynamics. The new higher peaks "measure" like more dynamic range but they don't sound louder. MP3 compression has a similar effect so often the MP3 will also "measure better" than the CD it was ripped from.**

CDs have about 30dB more dynamic range capability (because of the noise on records). And dynamic compression reduces the dynamic range ("dynamic contrast") so "loudness war" compression is no problem on a record. (In the analog days, they had, and used, analog compression and loudness wars but it usually wasn't as bad because they didn't have the modern digital "weapons".


* The frequency response on vinyl can extend beyond CDs into the ultrasonic range, but CDs are flatter over the audio range.

** MP3 actually has more dynamic range capability than 16-bit audio! MP3 can go over 0dB (I don't think there's a hard-limit) and it can go quieter where the 16-bit data drops to dead silence (digital zeros). But of course it's lossy so it's not a good trade-off. And it doesn't help to go over 0dB since DACs are limited to 0dB

 

[Soniclife]

I was thinking about the ND5, but with this information, is it better to go with the ND7? Or would anyone do something different?

Look at the cartridge measurement library thread, there are better options.

 

[mike70]

Usually I try to be more careful with my wording. "Better sound" is subjective and some people like the sound of vinyl and that's OK with me. But technically (noise, distortion, and frequency response*) digital is better.

On vinyl you can always hear backgroiund noise between tracks and sometimes during quiet parts. And the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" can sometimes be very bad! I could live with the low-level noise on a good record (if I had to) but the clicks & pops always annoyed me.


LPs sometimes often use the same master, or sometimes there is additional mastering-processing to accommodate vinyl. Sometimes the vinyl is less compressed but you can't count on it.

There's no limit to how much you can compress with either format. Of course you can put a test-tone with zero dynamics on a record.

There are loudness limits but they aren't as strictly defined as digital... As you make vinyl louder it may become harder to track with some cartridges and the grooves get wider so you can't fit as much music on a side.

And simple "DR" measurements can be misleading because vinyl cutting and playback boosts some peaks and reduces others without changing the sound of the dynamics. The new higher peaks "measure" like more dynamic range but they don't sound louder. MP3 compression has a similar effect so often the MP3 will also "measure better" than the CD it was ripped from.**

CDs have about 30dB more dynamic range capability (because of the noise on records). And dynamic compression reduces the dynamic range ("dynamic contrast") so "loudness war" compression is no problem on a record. (In the analog days, they had, and used, analog compression and loudness wars but it usually wasn't as bad because they didn't have the modern digital "weapons".


* The frequency response on vinyl can extend beyond CDs into the ultrasonic range, but CDs are flatter over the audio range.

** MP3 actually has more dynamic range capability than 16-bit audio! MP3 can go over 0dB (I don't think there's a hard-limit) and it can go quieter where the 16-bit data drops to dead silence (digital zeros). But of course it's lossy so it's not a good trade-off. And it doesn't help to go over 0dB since DACs are limited to 0dB

i don't suffer with annoying cracks and pops sounds ... that's why i talked about a strict and deep clean method. For someone that doesn't like it and see that as a hassle ... forget about vinyl absolutely. But, with the proper care, i don't listen to any noise between tracks, inside tracks, whatever ... and only one or two low volume "clicks" in an entire side of the record.

i understand very deeply the theoretical differences with digital, all of them, but in the real world, i mean my ears (i don't listen to 20-20khs even on dreams) in my system (very decent, but not the last world) in my room (absolutely not perfect acoustics) with my recordings (i don't think the recordings have more than 60dB SNR) ... in the 80% of the times, that vanishes totally and i only have the joy of music. I have some friends that told me: "hey, good music, what CD are you listenting?"

that experience with vinyl isn't free, at all. The format is expensive, inconvenient, blah blah ... but, for someone who REALLY like the experience AND use it wisely (decent turntable, good stylus, clean records) .. the results are astonishing.

i'm not saying vinyl is better (for god sake), i'm saying what i'm saying, for those who can understand it correctly. That's all.

 

[mike70]

I was thinking about the ND5, but with this information, is it better to go with the ND7?

absolutely if you want to stay with Rega cartridges.
With Audio Technica cartridges you have really great sounding cartridges with microline stylus at a much lesser price tag, as an example the AT VM95ML ... under 200 USD.
A no brainier cartridge (i have it, and it's simply a steal at that price).

If you want the setup convenience on the rega tonearm (i understand that easy convenience), please go with ND7.

 

[Abdo]

absolutely if you want to stay with Rega cartridges.
With Audio Technica cartridges you have really great sounding cartridges with microline stylus at a much lesser price tag, as an example the AT VM95ML ... under 200 USD.
A no brainier cartridge (i have it, and it's simply a steal at that price).

So, I have an Elys installed today, and I was thinking about the ND5, but after reading a lot of people saying I should go for the ND7, I'm not sure. Now you're suggesting an Audio Technica. Which one would be equivalent to an ND7, and wouldn't have much trouble with the installation? Or since I have an Elys, would it be silly to make this switch? Sorry for so many questions.

 

[Soniclife]

So, I have an Elys installed today, and I was thinking about the ND5, but after reading a lot of people saying I should go for the ND7, I'm not sure. Now you're suggesting an Audio Technica. Which one would be equivalent to an ND7, and wouldn't have much trouble with the installation? Or since I have an Elys, would it be silly to make this switch? Sorry for so many questions.

Think about how you will manage VTA on a rega with other carts, or look at ortofon who do short Rega specific carts in the 2M range.

 

[Soniclife]

I have a Rega RP3 from 2014 (with a RB-303 tonearm), and then a few years ago I bought a Rega Planar 8 with the RB-880 tonearm (with the option to return it, luckily). I then recorded some records from my RP3 onto my computer. I then put my cartridge onto to the Planar 8 and recorded the same records.

Do you still have those recordings?

 

[JeremyFife]

This sort of thing has been in my mind since I joined ASR, interesting to see how the thread develops.

Vinyl was the only valid option when I started in hi-fi (first love!), I'm happily digital now. I still spin the odd record for fun, I still buy the occasional record (for reasons that mostly escape me). I might let it go one day, but I'm pretty content with that occasional dalliance.
I kind of believe in the 'some vinyl masters are better' angle - but I'll cheerfully concede that there's no real evidence.

Everything to do with vinyl seems to be hopelessly entangled with cognitive bias, so much so that I've given up on finding objective information. The Cartridge measurement thread here is brilliant, but impenetrable and often just demonstrates sample variation - it's still a good read though.

Can we break vinyl reproduction down to: most TT's are not broken (good enough speed control and hold the stylus in the right place) so then the cartridge response seems to be key - plus stylus profile (perhaps?). Oh, and MC is a waste of time.

Won't make me upgrade my vinyl setup, it's already outrageously expensive compared to the good parts of my system, but really interesting to know

 

[mike70]

So, I have an Elys installed today, and I was thinking about the ND5, but after reading a lot of people saying I should go for the ND7, I'm not sure. Now you're suggesting an Audio Technica. Which one would be equivalent to an ND7, and wouldn't have much trouble with the installation? Or since I have an Elys, would it be silly to make this switch? Sorry for so many questions.

i'm not suggesting anything, do as you please / think is better for you.
the only thing is to have a stylus above elliptical cut, i mean, fine line / microline and the situation is very easy: if you want the less hassle, buy the Rega ND7 and forget it.

 

[akamatsu]

All else equal, a Planar 6 should outperform a Planar 3. It's from the same company and costs more. I would think that Rega would have to demonstrate an improvement as you go up the line. Your dealer should be able to provide this demonstration.

 

[AaronJ]

The only differences between the Planar 3 and Planar 6 are cosmetic, and with the Planar 6 you are purchasing the speed control box that solves the problem only the people at Rega seem not to know how to figure out. They'll sound and perform the same.

 

[WDeranged]

I compared a Planar 1, 2 & 3 using the same cart (VM95ML) and the differences were subtle enough that I decided to stay with the Planar 1 and save my money.

 

[somebodyelse]

Think about how you will manage VTA on a rega with other carts, or look at ortofon who do short Rega specific carts in the 2M range.

The usual answer is spacers, or a threaded adjuster (Origin Live, Michell, or a cheap clone from eBay)