Turntable advice requested, please!

[mhardy6647]

I agree the Clearaudio brand is expensive. I have the Performance DC with the Satsfy Carbon arm plus I added the VTA lifter. It looks like the arm on the Marantz is the aluminum version of that arm. I really can’t fault the arm - I do have the magnetic ceramic bearing in mine, but it is a much more expensive package. What is it about the Marantz that makes it bad?

No, it's a wood ("ebony", ostensibly) arm wand.
The arm and the tt are just kind of indifferently designed and constructed.
The pulley on the motor, e.g., is a hard, styrene-like plastic. It certainly doesn't give any sense of being carefully constructed, much less machined. It appears to be molded. It is user-installed on the shaft of the motor, and held in place by a similarly hard (brittle?) plastic setscrew. Nothing about placing nor securing the motor pulley inspires confidence in accuracy nor longevity.
As another example, the motor just sits in a little cutout in the "plinth" that's got an i.d. that's a bit larger than the motor. The exact tension on the drive belt thus "is what it is", depending on one's skill to center the motor in the hole.

Interestingly, the Marantz is noticeably "upgraded" from the CA model (Emotion) from which it is clearly (Clearaudioly ) derived. The platter is (much) thicker, the feet are beefier, and IIRC even the "plinth" is thicker (well, maybe not, see photos below... but it's certainly cosmetically different). The drivetrain is primitive, as is (as mentioned by another poster above) the arm height adjustment and the platter bearing isn't impressive either. The headshell doesn't allow for much in the way of adjustment and cartridge installation isn't particularly easy. The notion of its (ostensibly) magnetic antiskate is nice, but again the execution (just a screw that turns in or out to vary it) makes its accuracy and even usefulness questionable. I bought mine used, and the very cheesy plastic arm clip (meant to secure the arm when the tt was not in use) had been broken on it.

The CA Emotion of the TT15S1's era.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/vinyl/vinyl200404.htm

the TT15S1

 

[Bob from Florida]

No, it's a wood ("ebony", ostensibly) arm wand.
The arm and the tt are just kind of indifferently designed and constructed.
The pulley on the motor, e.g., is a hard, styrene-like plastic. It certainly doesn't give any sense of being carefully constructed, much less machined. It appears to be molded. It is user-installed on the shaft of the motor, and held in place by a similarly hard (brittle?) plastic setscrew. Nothing about placing nor securing the motor pulley inspires confidence in accuracy nor longevity.
As another example, the motor just sits in a little cutout in the "plinth" that's got an i.d. that's a bit larger than the motor. The exact tension on the drive belt thus "is what it is", depending on one's skill to center the motor in the hole.

Interestingly, the Marantz is noticeably "upgraded" from the CA model (Emotion) from which it is clearly (Clearaudioly ) derived. The platter is (much) thicker, the feet are beefier, and IIRC even the "plinth" is thicker (well, maybe not, see photos below... but it's certainly cosmetically different). The drivetrain is primitive, as is (as mentioned by another poster above) the arm height adjustment and the platter bearing isn't impressive either. The headshell doesn't allow for much in the way of adjustment and cartridge installation isn't particularly easy. The notion of its (ostensibly) magnetic antiskate is nice, but again the execution (just a screw that turns in or out to vary it) makes its accuracy and even usefulness questionable. I bought mine used, and the very cheesy plastic arm clip (meant to secure the arm when the tt was not in use) had been broken on it.

The CA Emotion of the TT15S1's era.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/vinyl/vinyl200404.htm

the TT15S1

I am pretty sure wood version of that arm is no longer available. It had "problems". I wonder if the current Marantz uses the carbon fiber version like mine. The arm tube clip on mine is not plastic but some kind of flexible rubber like substance. The magnetic anti-skate works well for me. Used gear sometimes is iffy... Best thing is always try before buying or use a retailer with a generous return policy.

 

[mike70]

My question here is:

Within the AT-VM95 Series, we see 6 different (replacement) styli. OK, understood. But are there also 6 different cartridge bodies?

No ... why do you suspect that?

 

[mhardy6647]

I am pretty sure wood version of that arm is no longer available. It had "problems". I wonder if the current Marantz uses the carbon fiber version like mine. The arm tube clip on mine is not plastic but some kind of flexible rubber like substance. The magnetic anti-skate works well for me. Used gear sometimes is iffy... Best thing is always try before buying or use a retailer with a generous return policy.

It was more of a demonstrator -- its provenance was well known to me (including the broken arm clip). Pretty sure the things I don't like about it are baked in.

 

[levimax]

My question here is:

Within the AT-VM95 Series, we see 6 different (replacement) styli. OK, understood. But are there also 6 different cartridge bodies?

Not sure with current AT's but in the past the manufactures would "bin" the cartridge bodies for low inductance. The "better" cart bodies would go with the "better" styli. It would not surprise me if it is the same now.

 

[dlaloum]

Did some »research« at the Audio-Technica website in order to understand the AT-VM95E product line and its naming scheme. Seems they offer 6 different replacement styli, ranging from 21 € to 189 €

Cartridge name:​

AT-VM95E​

​

Stylus names:​

AT-VMN95C (blue body)​

AT-VMN95E (green body, default?)​

AT-VMN95EN (orange body)​

AT-VMN95ML (red body)​

AT-VMN95SH (brown body)​

AT-VMN95SP (white body)​

And Clearaudio

Thank you again! It looks like the Grace RS-9EB (green, bonded elliptical) or the Grace RS-9E (blue, nude elliptical) are the two I could likely afford, leaning towards the former, as I'm not sure if my TT is "worthy" of the latter. If these are indeed slide-in replacements and I don't have to change/mount/align, that is indeed the way to go. I can always contact Soundsmith and confirm before purchasing.

Double check those Grace styli - they have round shanks where your stylus has a diamond shank - apparently a number of people have fitted the diamond shank styli to the Grace - I don't know whether the reverse also works.... diamond into round may well work, where round into diamond doesn't.

 

[dlaloum]

I was in the fence with Hana and finally bought the AT33 ptgii with boron cantilever and microline stylus. Very happy.

In my "blind tests" with a 540ml mm upgraded with aluminum body ... The AT33 was a tiny more clear in voices, cimbals and soundstage. (digitalized tracks and using Foobar ABX comparator)

Both cartridges makes you forget about that you're listening to vinyl ... perfect tracking from beginning to end. Highly recommended as the pro reviewers say

My SUT can be configured for the not common Hana electrical parameters (similar to Denon 103) ... I'll try it someday, sure.

The vm95en is a hell of cartridge for the price, if you like the sound firm, is a steal.

Have you tried using EQ to adjust them to a flat frequency response before comparing?

Many cartridge differences (not all) are down to substantial differences in frequency response... much like speakers, they have differing resonance, that result in differing voicings.

If you adjust/EQ for flat F/R then level match, you might be surprised by how much of the differences between cartridges disappear.

Not that I am one to disparage a 540ML or AT33 - both nice cartridges!

But I did the above experiment with about 10 different cartridges from my cartridge library - and most of them ended up sounding identical to each other (or very very difficult to differentiate - to the point where DBT differentiation is questionable). Note: all cartridge were elliptical or line contact needles, some MC, some MM, some MI, and various cantilever materials (Boron, Aluminium)

 

[dlaloum]

My question here is:

Within the AT-VM95 Series, we see 6 different (replacement) styli. OK, understood. But are there also 6 different cartridge bodies?

No - they are the same cartridge bodies.

Having said that - this family has been around for many many years - the same core body was used for the AT3600/AT91 and many many other cartridges.

Some of those other historical cartridges, varied in the inductance of the cartridge body/generator from the current ones... which can make for interesting tuning options, if you have a number of the older models in your collection.

The stylus core on all of the related cartridges are interchangeable - BUT the plastic surround, and the shape of the generator mounting to headshell have varied over time, and some styli won't necessarily fit without cutting away part of the plastic. (The Clearaudio versions, cut away ALL the plastic surround leaving NOTHING but the stub... they claim it reduces resonances.... - I am not convinced.)

 

[dlaloum]

Not sure with current AT's but in the past the manufactures would "bin" the cartridge bodies for low inductance. The "better" cart bodies would go with the "better" styli. It would not surprise me if it is the same now.

Nah - there was some binning - but the big difference between the better models was superior matching of the L & R channels

Different inductance versions were produced over time... and if you have them in your collection, can be used to tune the voicing.

The binning and associated testing was mostly done for the upper end models AT15/20 etc... I don't believe it was ever done on the basic models such as the AT91 & AT95.

There are some gains to be achieved from getting a bag of old AT95 bodies, testing them, and picking the best matched versions... (in addition to tuning possible by using vintage versions with differing inductances)

 

[Strumbringer]

And Clearaudio

Double check those Grace styli - they have round shanks where your stylus has a diamond shank - apparently a number of people have fitted the diamond shank styli to the Grace - I don't know whether the reverse also works.... diamond into round may well work, where round into diamond doesn't.

Will do. Just sent an email to Soundsmith, including my TT make/model and a link to the same stylus I'm currently using. I hope they'll get back to me with some confirmation. If not, I'll go with the AT-Vm95e.

Also, just to share with you all, I bought my first LP in over 35 years today at the used record store. I bought Emerson, Lake, & Palmer Trilogy and I'm thoroughly enjoying side one as I type this! Finding near mint vinyl for $5 is great, but I will stay clear of $40 + LPs.

 

[mike70]

Have you tried using EQ to adjust them to a flat frequency response before comparing?

Many cartridge differences (not all) are down to substantial differences in frequency response... much like speakers, they have differing resonance, that result in differing voicings.

If you adjust/EQ for flat F/R then level match, you might be surprised by how much of the differences between cartridges disappear.

Not that I am one to disparage a 540ML or AT33 - both nice cartridges!

But I did the above experiment with about 10 different cartridges from my cartridge library - and most of them ended up sounding identical to each other (or very very difficult to differentiate - to the point where DBT differentiation is questionable). Note: all cartridge were elliptical or line contact needles, some MC, some MM, some MI, and various cantilever materials (Boron, Aluminium)

Well, it can be, for sure.
Also mc cartridges have great "immunity" to cable capacitance, and that can be a source of differences.

This hobby is madness

 

[dlaloum]

Well, it can be, for sure.
Also mc cartridges have great "immunity" to cable capacitance, and that can be a source of differences.

This hobby is madness

Yes cable capacitance impacts on the EQ circuit which forms the loading of the MM cartridge setup - whereas with MC's due to the massively lower inductance, the capacitance impact is totally negligible.

On the other hand there have been a couple of low inductance MM's that react very much like MC's (and require MC levels of phono stage gain!) - I have a Stanton cartridge of that ilk...

 

[Golf]

No ... why do you suspect that?

Uhm ... Didn’t you notice the different letterings before?

 

[Golf]

No - they are the same cartridge bodies.

But with different letterings, and different production countries stated on them?


OK, here’s how Audio-Technica puts it:

»All VM95 models have [...] the same body design [...].«

Same design, they say.

 

[mike70]

But with different letterings, and different production countries stated on them?

The letterings are the stylus cut, as I stated before. And the cartridges with the budget styluses are made in China.
That's all, but the bodies are the same design.
Maybe I don't explained rightly before.

 

[Golf]

So if I upgrade my VM95E system by replacing its original stylus with a VMN95ML stylus I might end up with a setup just not quite as good as an original VM95ML system, as the latter comes with a »Made in Japan« cartridge body while mine is only China?

 

[mike70]

So if I upgrade my VM95E system by replacing its original stylus with a VMN95ML stylus I might end up with a setup just not quite as good as an original VM95ML system, as the latter comes with a »Made in Japan« cartridge body while mine is only China?

But maded in China doesn't mean less quality. BMW and Audi are maded in China for the internal market... in Audio, almost any brand are maded in China.

The concept is quality control ... if the design and QC is the same, you receive the same product. The factory pays the inefficiency.

So, what I mean? I don't think the vm95ml will sound better than a vm95e with ml stylus.

Japan in 50s and 60s was a bad word in quality also, China is the same example. Many people stays in 90s with China maded products ... and if we talk about audio ... asiatic brands have spectacular price / performance ratio as Topping, Denafrips, Cayin, Shanling, Fiio, ...

 

[Golf]

Then why do they pair the high-price styli with cartridge bodies made in Japan, if those made in China are the same quality?

 

[mike70]

Then why do they pair the high-price styli with cartridge bodies made in Japan, if those made in China are the same quality?

Two principal reasons: final costs (social laws, taxes, workers skills, ...) and production size (big factories).

You sell much more budget products than "premium" ones (check factory limits on production) and you need a budget price for them (highly skilled workers for an easy task are expensive). "Premium" products sells lesser (your factory can satisfy sales) and you can inflate the price tag as you want (well, audiophilia).

you don't need an artisan to make a conical stylus ... a shibata ... is another stuff.

answers are more on gray scales, not white or black.

 

[Bob from Florida]

So if I upgrade my VM95E system by replacing its original stylus with a VMN95ML stylus I might end up with a setup just not quite as good as an original VM95ML system, as the latter comes with a »Made in Japan« cartridge body while mine is only China?

Then why do they pair the high-price styli with cartridge bodies made in Japan, if those made in China are the same quality?

Perceived value is why the Japan bodies are paired with the better styli. Chinese manufactured items can easily have top-notch quality. If you doubt that, look at any Apple device. A friend of mine had custom power transformers and output transformers manufactured in China for his business. What he found out about Chinese manufacturing was they would build what you were willing to pay for. If you were not willing to pay a fair price for what you spec'ed them they would sometimes do the job anyway. However, you would get "what you insisted on underpaying for" - junk in some cases. This was over twenty years ago and my friend had done his research and understood this. While money can be saved by manufacturing in China, you still get what you pay for. Audio Technica likely understands all of this and plays both sides of the street. They pay sufficiently for the "cheap" version made in China while the premium version sports the "Made in Japan" label and commands a bit more profit. The better styli - if setup well on your arm - make the improvement with either body.

If you want a reasonably priced Japanese cartridge - buy a Hana.