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Turntable advice requested, please!

Bob from Florida

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Being devil's advocate here, but for $1000 you can get 7 or 8 years of Tidal or Qobuz streaming, with access to almost everything ever recorded, at better sound quality.
Yes, all true at the moment. However, after World War 3 all of the streaming services will be offline due to all the EMP's. His turntable and tube amp will still work.:eek:
 

Golf

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For $1000 you can get 7 or 8 years of Tidal or Qobuz streaming, with access to almost everything ever recorded, at better sound quality.

Inasmuch as this is true, it underlines the presence of some sort of »irrational approach« among hardware fans like me. There’s the question of weight, for instance. My good old Sony DD turntable is about 12 kg and (among other reasons) I just love it for its heavy character inside my listening room :facepalm: :D
 

sq225917

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It's funny that people still vastly over estimate the size technics tt market. Companies don't stop making products that sell well, just saying...

They were at their apex in the late 90s, sales wise, I bet they sell less than ten 1210 a week in the UK currently.

Rega and Project dwarf Technics TT sales figures in terms of global units.
 
OP
Strumbringer

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OP here!! Streaming you say?? May have to look that up in the dictionary to see what it means. ;)

Yes, well aware and use it often, and utilize FLAC & ALAC lossless audio primarily. The TT is an additional source of enjoyment that is simply different and not better/worse.

Quick recap: My ears and crude measurement confirm a lack of treble with my current set up:

Sanyo tp 1005 TT --> Technics SA-GX505 phono stage & line out ----> Linear Tube Audio MZ3 tube headphone amp ---->ZMF Verite Open & Auteur headphones

My Options;

1. Get stand-alone phono preamp
2. Replace cart/stylus with something better than OEM
3. Upgrade TT (can't afford this option right now and prefer to see if I can improve in some other way)

Radical bombastic controversial thought:

Is there anything horribly wrong with me putting an EQ (Schiit Loki) between the phono stage line output of my receiver and input of the headphone amp?? I mean, all I need to do is add a bit of treble!
 

Bob from Florida

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OP here!! Streaming you say?? May have to look that up in the dictionary to see what it means. ;)

Yes, well aware and use it often, and utilize FLAC & ALAC lossless audio primarily. The TT is an additional source of enjoyment that is simply different and not better/worse.

Quick recap: My ears and crude measurement confirm a lack of treble with my current set up:

Sanyo tp 1005 TT --> Technics SA-GX505 phono stage & line out ----> Linear Tube Audio MZ3 tube headphone amp ---->ZMF Verite Open & Auteur headphones

My Options;

1. Get stand-alone phono preamp
2. Replace cart/stylus with something better than OEM
3. Upgrade TT (can't afford this option right now and prefer to see if I can improve in some other way)

Radical bombastic controversial thought:

Is there anything horribly wrong with me putting an EQ (Schiit Loki) between the phono stage line output of my receiver and input of the headphone amp?? I mean, all I need to do is add a bit of treble!
Try an iFi Zen purchased from Crutchfield - 60 trial if it does not do the trick. Try gain 1&2 with your cartridge to evaluate. If you like it, you will be moving coil ready if you choose to try one.
 

Godataloss

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Being devil's advocate here, but for $1000 you can get 7 or 8 years of Tidal or Qobuz streaming, with access to almost everything ever recorded, at better sound quality.
Is this 'almost everything' true? I pay for Google Music and they don't have anywhere near everything despite integration with youtube.

To OP- spend the lion share of your budget on a cart/stylus. EQ is ok, but the better your system is, the worse analog eq like the Schiit is going to sound. Since you listen on headphones, it's likely good enough already to hear. I'd suggest looking at a Minidsp HD- PEQ is transparent to my ears.
 

Vacceo

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Yes, all true at the moment. However, after World War 3 all of the streaming services will be offline due to all the EMP's. His turntable and tube amp will still work.:eek:
Shadows on walls do not play records. It will be fun right before we become imprints, though. ;)
 

MattHooper

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Inasmuch as this is true, it underlines the presence of some sort of »irrational approach« among hardware fans like me. There’s the question of weight, for instance. My good old Sony DD turntable is about 12 kg and (among other reasons) I just love it for its heavy character inside my listening room :facepalm: :D

Heavy, you say?

transrotor-turntable-blue-record-jpg.3216630


:D

Seriously, there's nothing irrational about things you find cool.

Some people here chase the lowest SINAD possible, even though some other possibly cheaper device with a higher SINAD sounds the same. But the lower SINAD can be conceptually satisfying, a sign of the engineering skill that went in to the device. If someone finds that satisfying it's not irrational.

Likewise, weight is often something that confers a sense of substantial quality and permanence - light often give the feel of "cheap." The sensuous or conceptual aspects of gear can be part of any rational decision to purchase. In fact manufacturers often can't ignore the way the feel of a product impacts the user experience, so they factor it in to their designs.
 

dlaloum

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OP here!! Streaming you say?? May have to look that up in the dictionary to see what it means. ;)

Yes, well aware and use it often, and utilize FLAC & ALAC lossless audio primarily. The TT is an additional source of enjoyment that is simply different and not better/worse.

Quick recap: My ears and crude measurement confirm a lack of treble with my current set up:

Sanyo tp 1005 TT --> Technics SA-GX505 phono stage & line out ----> Linear Tube Audio MZ3 tube headphone amp ---->ZMF Verite Open & Auteur headphones

My Options;

1. Get stand-alone phono preamp
2. Replace cart/stylus with something better than OEM
3. Upgrade TT (can't afford this option right now and prefer to see if I can improve in some other way)

Radical bombastic controversial thought:

Is there anything horribly wrong with me putting an EQ (Schiit Loki) between the phono stage line output of my receiver and input of the headphone amp?? I mean, all I need to do is add a bit of treble!
No nothing wrong with that - the loading on the cartridge, is effectively analogue EQ... you can do digital just as well - issues may relate to gain matching, etc...

Best to use minimum phase EQ filters (ie: analogue style) as the cartridge is a minimum phase system

Other things / steps - if the TT has its original interconnect cables... ignore this. - If the TT's interconnect cables were "upgraded" - then you should check their capacitance - it is probably way way too high.
 
OP
Strumbringer

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No nothing wrong with that - the loading on the cartridge, is effectively analogue EQ... you can do digital just as well - issues may relate to gain matching, etc...

Best to use minimum phase EQ filters (ie: analogue style) as the cartridge is a minimum phase system

Other things / steps - if the TT has its original interconnect cables... ignore this. - If the TT's interconnect cables were "upgraded" - then you should check their capacitance - it is probably way way too high.
Thanks- Yes, the TT has the original hardwired 1980 interconnects. I've ordered an external phono preamp and if this doesn't show any improvement over the phono stage built-in to my receiver, I'll return it and go with the external analog EQ unit...or "bite the bullet" and save for a new TT.
 

spiral scratch

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Thanks- Yes, the TT has the original hardwired 1980 interconnects. I've ordered an external phono preamp and if this doesn't show any improvement over the phono stage built-in to my receiver, I'll return it and go with the external analog EQ unit...or "bite the bullet" and save for a new TT.
Did you upgrade your cartridge yet? That might be where your rolled off HF is coming from. I'm not sure about the EQ solution if there is no HF to EQ.
 

levimax

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Thanks- Yes, the TT has the original hardwired 1980 interconnects. I've ordered an external phono preamp and if this doesn't show any improvement over the phono stage built-in to my receiver, I'll return it and go with the external analog EQ unit...or "bite the bullet" and save for a new TT.
Before you start replacing hardware I would recommend you find out what is really going on with the FR. Do you have the ability to capture your TT output? If so there is some free software available from a member over on the thread linked below which if you buy a STR-100 test record (cheap on ebay) will give you both FR and distortion. There are enough examples of other peoples TT's / cart measurements to see how well your set up is working. https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mm-vs-mi-vs-mc.18636/post-624757

 
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Strumbringer

Strumbringer

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Did you upgrade your cartridge yet? That might be where your rolled off HF is coming from. I'm not sure about the EQ solution if there is no HF to EQ.
Makes sense about the EQ. No, I have not yet upgraded the cart. I thought I'd try the phono stage first and if there's no difference, I'd just return it (or keep it, as a TT upgrade may be in future).

Regarding the cart, there are so many different recommendations and it's overwhelming. I'm undecided on 1) which one to get that's not a lateral move, but likely to improve; 2) Never having removed/installed a cart before, there's a bit of confidence I need to muster to use hemostats and delicately do the job; 3) The whole alignment thing- I'll need to get a protractor or print a free one. Again, I have no experience in doing this and perhaps it's easier than I anticipate.
 

Bob from Florida

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Makes sense about the EQ. No, I have not yet upgraded the cart. I thought I'd try the phono stage first and if there's no difference, I'd just return it (or keep it, as a TT upgrade may be in future).

Regarding the cart, there are so many different recommendations and it's overwhelming. I'm undecided on 1) which one to get that's not a lateral move, but likely to improve; 2) Never having removed/installed a cart before, there's a bit of confidence I need to muster to use hemostats and delicately do the job; 3) The whole alignment thing- I'll need to get a protractor or print a free one. Again, I have no experience in doing this and perhaps it's easier than I anticipate.
I suggested the Zen to get the old receiver out of the equation. As you mentioned, it also gives you added options for the future.
 
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Strumbringer

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I suggested the Zen to get the old receiver out of the equation. As you mentioned, it also gives you added options for the future.
It arrived today and instantly, I'm noting all the high frequencies previously missing are present. Absolutely wonderful sounding! I think the phono stage in the receiver was indeed the rate limiting factor. I'm so glad you and others recommended this one.
 

mike70

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Happy for you!

Enjoy vinyl playback ... is a different (closer) experience with the music if you can appreciate it ... can be really satisfying.
 

spiral scratch

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glad to hear you got it sorted. Enjoy!

Regarding cartridges I think the VM95E would be worth considering. When I suggested a lateral move I was thinking of the 95E, it's predecessor. The VM95E offers a more refined stylus which should give better resolution. I believe that is a mid mass arm so any mid compliance cartridge should work OK. Yeh, there's a lot of options and cartridges are an acquired taste that tend to have groups of followers depending on their preferences. Anyways you have a new needle on there so you should have years before you need to think about a replacement and plenty of time to look into options.

If there's a shop in your area they will install cartridges for $30 or so depending. I do my own as there isn't anyone around me. It gets easier as you go and there's plenty of videos on set up. It's slightly delicate work, but with your bayonet style arm the removal and attachment from the headshell is simplified. It's an S arm so there might be a simple clip-on option (a la Technics) for overhang and alignment which makes set up very straight forward.
 

dlaloum

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Makes sense about the EQ. No, I have not yet upgraded the cart. I thought I'd try the phono stage first and if there's no difference, I'd just return it (or keep it, as a TT upgrade may be in future).

Regarding the cart, there are so many different recommendations and it's overwhelming. I'm undecided on 1) which one to get that's not a lateral move, but likely to improve; 2) Never having removed/installed a cart before, there's a bit of confidence I need to muster to use hemostats and delicately do the job; 3) The whole alignment thing- I'll need to get a protractor or print a free one. Again, I have no experience in doing this and perhaps it's easier than I anticipate.

There are few cartridge manufacturers (for MM) and many cartridge sellers - which results in the same core generators being rebranded, repackaged, fitted with various wooden, metal or plastic surrounds and then sold under many differing brands.

The cartridge you alread have there - is looked on with contempt as the cheapie Audio Technica AT3600, and regarded with great respect as the Clearaudio Maestro, it also owns the mid market as the VM95 (and has appeared under a plethora of other brands including Lynn and Rega at various times).
The core poles/generator is the same across all of these, the surrounds and mountings vary, and the combination of the surround and the plastic stylus holder shape, is often used to limit the ability to swap styli from one brand to another (without plastic surgery).

For about half the price of an equivalent cartridge - you can get a stylus that fits your existing cartridge and is an upgrade.... sort of like fitting a turbocharger lowered suspension and sports wheels/tyres to a family sedan... yes you can take its performance up several levels - all with just a stylus upgrade.

As a bonus, you don't have to mess about with mounting and aligning a new cartridge.
 
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