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Turntable advice requested, please!

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Strumbringer

Strumbringer

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Understood. What is playing on the turntable for that display? A pink noise track on a test record would give you something to evaluate.
I was playing one of my LP's- David Lee Roth. Full band, with drums, guitars, bass, keys, and vocals. I keep coming back to the question- Is this a limitation of my generic stylus/cart or the phono stage is my 1991 Technics receiver? I suppose I could buy a new stand-alone phono pre and see if that helps and return it if it doesn't. Then I'll know if my cart/stylus should be upgraded, right?
if you´re using a conical stylus ... is pretty standard.
Advanced stylus profiles get higher frequencies, but also they need more care in the setup process (tonearm height, azimuth, etc.) There´s no free lunch in audio :)
Totally understand! LOL. Yes, I'm using conical stylus that is a direct replacement for the one that was stock. I've read that if I went with an elliptical, it would have more contact with the surface area of the LP grooves and produce more higher frequencies. Does that sound right?
 

Bob from Florida

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I was playing one of my LP's- David Lee Roth. Full band, with drums, guitars, bass, keys, and vocals. I keep coming back to the question- Is this a limitation of my generic stylus/cart or the phono stage is my 1991 Technics receiver? I suppose I could buy a new stand-alone phono pre and see if that helps and return it if it doesn't. Then I'll know if my cart/stylus should be upgraded, right?

Totally understand! LOL. Yes, I'm using conical stylus that is a direct replacement for the one that was stock. I've read that if I went with an elliptical, it would have more contact with the surface area of the LP grooves and produce more higher frequencies. Does that sound right?
Recorded music is full of different peaks at different frequencies. Perfectly normal. You may or may not have attenuated frequencies. Conical styli are easiest to set up, but do not reproduce the recording as well as elliptical, shibata, or micro-line. Bad setup on the more advanced profiles can sound worse, so if you get a better cartridge/stylus be accurate when mounting it.
If I were you, I would first decide if a better table/arm is in the cards before doing the cartridge upgrade. If it is, pick the new combo before picking a cartridge. For example, a low compliance cartridge is not going to work well on a low mass arm. Think "compatibility" when making selections.
 

mike70

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Relative to surface contact ... in a quick and abreviated answer ... yes, almost every advanced profile have more surface contact.
And is part of the aswer, the other part is the shape of the contact, i mean, a round circle (conical) or something more elliptical / trapezoidal (different aspect between horizontal / vertical size) with more "drive" to the stylus movement.

Check it out here:

stylus-table.gif
 
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Strumbringer

Strumbringer

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Recorded music is full of different peaks at different frequencies. Perfectly normal. You may or may not have attenuated frequencies. Conical styli are easiest to set up, but do not reproduce the recording as well as elliptical, shibata, or micro-line. Bad setup on the more advanced profiles can sound worse, so if you get a better cartridge/stylus be accurate when mounting it.
If I were you, I would first decide if a better table/arm is in the cards before doing the cartridge upgrade. If it is, pick the new combo before picking a cartridge. For example, a low compliance cartridge is not going to work well on a low mass arm. Think "compatibility" when making selections.
Understood- Well, in doing some quick research and getting some opinions from TT enthusiasts, I'm told I'm looking at least at $1K for a TT. I had originally investigated some $500-ish offerings, but most guys didn't think those were worth entertaining. So, I'd rather not splurge and see if I can get just a slight increase in treble by some fashion.

Do you guys think an EQ like the Schitt Loki mini would be helpful here? Maybe after the phono stage and before the headphone amp?

Relative to surface contact ... in a quick and abreviated answer ... yes, almost every advanced profile have more surface contact.
And is part of the aswer, the other part is the shape of the contact, i mean, a round circle (conical) or something more elliptical / trapezoidal (different aspect between horizontal / vertical size) with more "drive" to the stylus movement.

Check it out here:

stylus-table.gif
Excellent- this makes sense!
 

Bob from Florida

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Understood- Well, in doing some quick research and getting some opinions from TT enthusiasts, I'm told I'm looking at least at $1K for a TT. I had originally investigated some $500-ish offerings, but most guys didn't think those were worth entertaining. So, I'd rather not splurge and see if I can get just a slight increase in treble by some fashion.

Do you guys think an EQ like the Schitt Loki mini would be helpful here? Maybe after the phono stage and before the headphone amp?


Excellent- this makes sense!
Do you know the mass of your current tonearm? This will assist in picking a cartridge.
 

levimax

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One thing to keep in mind is that a stylus does not last very long, especially a conical or elliptical stylus. While the below is self serving for JICO I do know a new stylus always sounds better. I think JICO uses 3% distortion @ 10 Khz as worn out.

1. Conical​

The Conical stylus is the most standard stylus type.DJs prefer this. Product lifetime is about 200 playing hours.

2. Elliptical​

The Elliptical tip is good at reproducing high frequency area. Product lifetime is about 150 playing hours.

3. Shibata​

The Shibata stylus can play 4-channel sound on quadraphonic records.Product lifetime is about 400 playing hours.

4. Hyper Elliptical​

The Hyper Elliptical stylus is thinner than the Elliptical stylus. This gives additional frequency response. Product lifetime is about 400 playing hours.

5. Super Analog Stylus (SAS)​

The SAS is the JICO’s original model. That tip resembles the cutting stylus and can trace record grooves precisely. The SAS is excellent at reproducing both high and low frequencies. Product lifetime is about 500 playing hours.
 
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Strumbringer

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Do you know the mass of your current tonearm? This will assist in picking a cartridge.
I actually could not determine the mass of the tone arm. I looked at the original service manual here, but it doesn't specify, unfortunately:

 

Golf

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I never seen any TT more bulletproof than a Technics direct drive.
My SL-Q2 have more than 40 years with me only with 2 drops of oil in the spindle every 4-5 years
Same with my Sony PS-X 60, which I bought around 1978. Works so well up to this day, so if I might need to buy a new one finally, I’d definitely go for a quartz-controlled direct drive player again.
 

mike70

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Same with my Sony PS-X 60, which I bought around 1978. Works so well up to this day, so if I might need to buy a new one finally, I’d definitely go for a quartz-controlled direct drive player again.

I think the new 1200 MK7 have a tremendous price / performance ratio.
New motor (coreless) and plinth with modern materials (2 layers, aluminum and ABS + fiber glass), new bearings ... 900 usd ... a steal.
i can't think on any TT under 1k today better tan MK7.
 
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AaronJ

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I think the new 1200 MK7 have a tremendous price / performance ratio.
New motor (coreless) and plinth with modern materials (2 layers, aluminum and ABS + fiber glass), new bearings ... 900 usd ... a steal.
i can't think on any TT under 1k today better tan MK7.
Performance-wise, I agree. I'd offer that the Technics SL-100C is also a tremendous value at $1k. The reason I went for the 100C instead of 1200 MK7 is for the auto-lift and the hinged dust cover.
 

mike70

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Performance-wise, I agree. I'd offer that the Technics SL-100C is also a tremendous value at $1k. The reason I went for the 100C instead of 1200 MK7 is for the auto-lift and the hinged dust cover.

oh yes ... that is a question of desired features. Hinged dust cover it isn't important for me, because i put off the cover when i´m listening ... i don´t like anything that can vibrate stucked with the TT, in fact, "expensive audiophile" TTs works in that way ... without the hinges.
Auto-lift is something i value more.

only decisions ... the new technics are really blockbusters
 

Golf

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the new 1200 MK7
That one is too DJ-ish for my taste.

Besides, if you add features like fully automatic and maybe »Made in Japan« to your wish list, you may have problems to find any actual player model at all.
 

Godataloss

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I think the new 1200 MK7 have a tremendous price / performance ratio.
New motor (coreless) and plinth with modern materials (2 layers, aluminum and ABS + fiber glass), new bearings ... 900 usd ... a steal.
i can't think on any TT under 1k today better tan MK7.
They ugly tho... just sayin'.
 

mike70

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That one is too DJ-ish for my taste.

Besides, if you add features like fully automatic and maybe »Made in Japan« to your wish list, you may have problems to find any actual player model at all.

Well, Djs takes that design and generates a new standard ... but Technics turntables wasn´t designed as "Dj turntable" from scratch. They simply goes years ahead in design, with the direct drive motor, etc. Reliability, high torque, bulletproof, VTA, correct pitch in every situation (remember that 50 years ago, records sometimes had bad recording pitch) ... that was the "design", slightly to also broadcasting.

DJs takes it, that´s the difference. Not the opposite.

Panasonic stated clearly when they comeback to 1200s ... they can't fulfill orders with the Japanese factories ... they didn´t imagine the total success. So, they opened new factories with the SAME standards in Malaysia (not China), when they already have factories with great quality since decades. Many people said things like "now Technics will go down on quality", when they promised they will implement the same QA methods.

What are the facts? They´re selling much more and with the same "quality ratio" than before. Sometimes you see some 1200s with some trouble, as i see it with Rega or Project, selling much lesser than Technics.

It´s not my interest to push people to Technics, i only try to show the other side of the coin when i see some possible "urban mith" about the brand. Nothing more.
 

Bob from Florida

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I actually could not determine the mass of the tone arm. I looked at the original service manual here, but it doesn't specify, unfortunately:

I tried looking up the cartridge and could not find it that way either. Best bet is go for a medium compliance cartridge and give it a try.
Sumiko Moonstone could be interesting - for an alternative to the suggested AT.
 

dlaloum

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if you´re using a conical stylus ... is pretty standard.
Advanced stylus profiles get higher frequencies, but also they need more care in the setup process (tonearm height, azimuth, etc.) There´s no free lunch in audio :)
Well - sort of - with a conical you still get a signal at higher frequencies, it's just mostly distortion!

Much of the F/R response of a cartridge, any cartridge, is driven by the cantilever resonance... fat/heavy cantilevers can have a resonance as low as 8kHz to 10kHz - better ones go up to around 15khz or 16kHz - and excellent low mass ones can push the resonance up well beyond hearing (30Khz +)

With most MM's the cantilever resonance ( a standard bell shaped boost curve of signal - along with matching rise in distortion) is balanced by a filter generated by the combination of the cartridge inductance, and load impedance and capacitance.... hence the need for different cartridges with different styli (cantilevers!) to have differing loading to maintain a flat frequency response... alternatively the cartridge designers can match a different cartridge body with higher or lower inductance - to better match the differing stylus....

The finer side radius of elipticals and line contact designs, allow them to accurately read the vinyl sidewall at frequencies above 12kHz (I would have to look it up to work out what radius limits at what frequency... ) - but there is a difference between accurate reproduction of the recording, and presence of signal coming out of cartridge.... yes a conical/spherical will still provide output at higher frequencies - but typically, their loading is designed to roll off the high end, as most of that high end, is pure distortion.

And yes what people don't think about, is that what is happening at those high frequencies, is that the conical stylus is mistracking, resulting in increased wear on the record, and effectively it is wearing away those same high frequencies it cannot reproduce... given enough plays with a conical, an eliptical will be unable to then retrieve that information - it has been worn away. - But a line contact, due to reading the side wall both above and below the contact patch of a conical or eliptical stylus, will often read the undamaged, virgin vinyl.... also due to its extended contact patch, the line contact needle will reduce wear, as it's tracking force is spread over a substantially larger surface area - so it mistracks less, reduces wear, and both needle and vinyl last much longer (4x longer as a minimum).
 

dlaloum

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I tried looking up the cartridge and could not find it that way either. Best bet is go for a medium compliance cartridge and give it a try.
Sumiko Moonstone could be interesting - for an alternative to the suggested AT.
You can measure the static mass of the arm (at headshell) without counterweight, and the mass of the counterweight, and then use those to calculate the arm mass.

Using different headshells can allow quite substantial variation of the effective mass, as long as you have appropriate counterweights to match (lots of vintage turntables use the same arm diameter at the counterweight, meaning that with a bit of searching you can build up a collection of different weight counterweights.

The headshells are available in mass from 5.5g to 21g+

Often you can achieve lower effective mass (inertial impact on the stylus suspension...) by using a slightly heavier counterweight positioned slightly closer to the pivot point, rather than a lower mass CW further out from the pivot point.

I have a handy effective mass spreadsheet which I shared here:


A typical S shaped tonearm like the Technics SL1200 family - has an effective mass of circa 12g
 

dlaloum

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Totally understand! LOL. Yes, I'm using conical stylus that is a direct replacement for the one that was stock. I've read that if I went with an elliptical, it would have more contact with the surface area of the LP grooves and produce more higher frequencies. Does that sound right?
The contact patch on an eliptical is horizontally narrower, which means if the corrugations that define the sound are closer together (ie higher frequency), it can still touch the side wall ... a top eliptical and a line contact have the same horizontal contact patch size, but differ in the vertical contact patch length.

This will help to visualise:
 

SKBubba

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Being devil's advocate here, but for $1000 you can get 7 or 8 years of Tidal or Qobuz streaming, with access to almost everything ever recorded, at better sound quality.
 

mike70

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Being devil's advocate here, but for $1000 you can get 7 or 8 years of Tidal or Qobuz streaming, with access to almost everything ever recorded, at better sound quality.I like the physical medium

Disagree.

- I like the physical medium, I only use streaming to search for new music and to know what I'll buy ... or to ambient music.

- streaming doesn't sound better than my records ... at all.

But, you can like much more streaming and it's ok, what's the problem? For me, there's no problem. Go ahead.
 
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