Tuning a catridge. How much effort do you put into it?

[Drakon]

I've done a search for the specific cartridge and my question but didn't see a close result.

I haven't settled on any one but am interested in an Eroica LX but reviews are scant. I understand all cartridges will impart its own characteristics to the music but how much time and energy should be put into taming the highs and lows so to speak electronically?

Load impedance, different phono stages, solid-state and/or step-up transformers, tracking weight etc. What is worth pursuing and what is just a waste of time and money? This is beyond the out of the box suggested tonearm setup.

Can one trust (certain) turntable manufacturer's to best match stylus and TT on higher end setups? I realize what I just said but you know what I mean.

Do you guys decide on the turntable and mix and match the cartridges until satisfied?

Thanks.

 

[BJL]

I just follow the manufacturer's instructions and make sure that it is mounted properly. Anything beyond that is a waste of time and energy.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't play records anymore (I occasionally digitize one)...

Back in the analog days, I pretty much just "followed the instructions" too. I used to think that lighter tracking force meant less record wear, but I don't think that's really true and you're probably better-off in the middle of the recommended range. If it's too light you can get mis-tracking (distortion).

I never heard any difference with other slight mechanical adjustments.

solid-state and/or step-up transformers,

As you probably know, that's only for moving coil cartridges. A transformer will boost the signal giving a better signal-to-noise ratio with respect to preamp noise. But, it MAY introduce slight frequency response variations. In general, I "don't like" transformers in the audio chain, but sometimes there's a good reason to use one. (Of course, it has no effect on the record's signal-to-noise ratio since the signal and surface noise are boosted together by the transformer and preamp.)

ow much time and energy should be put into taming the highs and lows so to speak electronically?

Records are imperfect and cartridges are imperfect so it's "OK" to use a little EQ (or your tone controls) by ear.

 

[BJL]

The Goldring cartridge you mention is a moving coil and will need a phono pre-amp with sufficient gain or a transformer in addition to the phono pre. I have a low output moving magnet cart and use a Puffin phono pre (no longer made but I presume available on the secondary market) which can handle any cartridge and has endless options for fine tuning, as well as equalization curves to match virtually any vinyl or shellac record ever manufactured. But aside from the input stage, it is a digital device, (mine has a toslink output) and perhaps you for some reason want to stay in the analog domain, in which the Puffin (or the newer Waxwing, about which I am unfamiliar) would not be right for you.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I've done a search for the specific cartridge and my question but didn't see a close result.

I haven't settled on any one but am interested in an Eroica LX but reviews are scant. I understand all cartridges will impart its own characteristics to the music but how much time and energy should be put into taming the highs and lows so to speak electronically?

Load impedance, different phono stages, solid-state and/or step-up transformers, tracking weight etc. What is worth pursuing and what is just a waste of time and money? This is beyond the out of the box suggested tonearm setup.

Can one trust (certain) turntable manufacturer's to best match stylus and TT on higher end setups? I realize what I just said but you know what I mean.

Do you guys decide on the turntable and mix and match the cartridges until satisfied?

Thanks.

The first constraint is ensuring that the cartridge's compliance matches the tonearm mass.

MC cartridges need lots of gain. This can be challenging from a noise point of view. They can also have ultrasonic resonance, which some preamplifiers don't handle well.

MM cartridges need to have the total wire+input capacitance in line with their specifications. However, most cables and preamplifiers have sensible defaults.

 

[Holmz]

I've done a search for the specific cartridge and my question but didn't see a close result.

I haven't settled on any one but am interested in an Eroica LX but reviews are scant. I understand all cartridges will impart its own characteristics to the music but how much time and energy should be put into taming the highs and lows so to speak electronically?

I got a Garrott bris p77i (~500 USD or 800 AUD), which is quite nice.
I doubt one needs a MC cart, but I have one of them as well.

SoundSmith has a wade variety of carts,

I cannot recommend the p77i enough. Maybe the Goldring is as good,
A review is buried in here: https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/soundsmith/3.html

Load impedance, different phono stages, solid-state and/or step-up transformers, tracking weight etc. What is worth pursuing and what is just a waste of time and money? This is beyond the out of the box suggested tonearm setup.

Can one trust (certain) turntable manufacturer's to best match stylus and TT on higher end setups? I realize what I just said but you know what I mean.

Mostly the arm and the cart are dependent upon each other,
They are either high mass arms, medium or low.
The cart is then low compliance to high compliance respectively.
Most arms are medium mass, and most carts are medium compliance.

On the loading, higher is better, and unless one has a scope to look for resonance in the RF ranges then just start high and load it down until you it to sound good.
Most MM carts use 47k ohms, or sometime 100k, and loading is not “a thing”.

A MC cart uses much lower loading, or a “Step up Transformer” (SUT).
Or they use a phono stage like a Sutherland Loco which is a trans-impedance design.
On MC carts loading is “a thing”

“Wally Tools” videos may help you, and SoundSmith, from recollection, has some as well.

Do you guys decide on the turntable and mix and match the cartridges until satisfied?

Thanks.

Dunno - just find one that works mechanically and give it a whirl.

 

[somebodyelse]

On the loading, higher is better, and unless one has a scope to look for resonance in the RF ranges then just start high and load it down until you it to sound good.
Most MM carts use 47k ohms, or sometime 100k, and loading is not “a thing”.

A MC cart uses much lower loading, or a “Step up Transformer” (SUT).
Or they use a phono stage like a Sutherland Loco which is a trans-impedance design.
On MC carts loading is “a thing”

Wrong way round on sensitivity to load. MM load (including capacitance of cable) has a significant effect on the high frequency audio response. For MC load has little effect in the audio range so long as it's somewhere near nominal (usually around 200 ohms), at least with an active MC input. If using a step-up transformer into an MM input the loading effects may be in a similar range to MM. You can find more details and some graphs showing the effects at https://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

 

[Holmz]

Wrong way round on sensitivity to load. MM load (including capacitance of cable) has a significant effect on the high frequency audio response. For MC load has little effect in the audio range so long as it's somewhere near nominal (usually around 200 ohms), at least with an active MC input. If using a step-up transformer into an MM input the loading effects may be in a similar range to MM. You can find more details and some graphs showing the effects at https://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

OK load and impedance… and semantics.
And Yeah… I glossed over the capacitance and inductance.

Generally high ohms for MM (47k) and low ohms for MC (~50-1k).
That is a lot of difference, like a ratio of 50:1 to 1000:1

That link you supplied was nice.

 

[DSJR]

Get the turntable and arm sited and sorted first before messing with a cartridge. My now old experiences of this EroikaLX is that it was microphonic through the speakers in handling/hand-cueing and not the most enjoyable of listens either, although it used to be quite popular I remember. Doesn't look any different really these days.

As for setting up, that diamond tip profile can be a bit fussy and spitty if it's not 'just so' I remember. If the arm is fixed in position, then overhang will either be optimised for 60mm from disc centre (Rega still use this setting), or 65mm as viewed on a dedicated overhang protractor (technics and my old Dual optimise for 57 - 58mm from disc centre, but it's academic really and totally inaudible). Using either seemed inaudible to me (it's around 1 - 2mm difference fore and aft in headshell slots and in practice, any 'difference' you may hear would more be in differences in tightening the fixing bolts to be honest).

VTA is approximate at best and can be fecked up with slightly ill-set diamonds offering too much or too little rake angle, as well as different vinyl compounds affecting how the stylus 'deforms' the vinyl as it plays. Maybe a wives tale, but I was once told the reason why many far eastern pickup styli had a more severe diamond rake angle (28 degrees rather than the EU 20 degrees or so) and thereby more distortion on 'western' test discs, was due to 'Japanese' vinyl records having a different compound and a softer tone played over here. 1.10g downforce differences can often fine-tune VTA in any case if the tonearm is fixed-height.

Sorry for the bleak tones above, but vinyl is an anal masochistic thing these days and distortion with tracing issues will aleways be there to a degree, no matter how much you spend. I prefer AT's OC9 series myself (I don't know the rather massive Ortofon MC range now but keep an old good MC30 Super in my stash) and a comparison of the ML and Shibata tipped versions showed me how important the diamond profile actually is, the Shibata not being as 'sharp and one-note toned' up top but not sounding 'safe and slightly suppressed' as the elliptical version did in comparison. the Gyger tips are certainly sharp toned and many audiophiles seem to like this.

My take as an old hand (or old fogey) - get the digital release instead and forget all angst of setting up a fancy/w@nky turntable system The OP won't want to read that though

 

[Drakon]

A ton of great advice. Thank you.

There are high and low output MC. Since the higher would need less amplification wouldn't that mean less induced problems?

Don't laugh but one table that got my interest is the Music Hall MMF- 9.3. The table ships with the Goldring Eroica LX, Ortofon Quintet Black low output MCs or none. When I see something like this where the manufacturer choices are the same style of cartridge, in this case MC are they saying that tonearm is not suited for another style? Or just best suited for that style. I don't want to be sceptical assuming they are pushing certain products.

This touches on the crux of my question. Go with what is recommended or tinker = time and money.

Again thank you. I'm still studying your comments. If this was answered apologies I missed it.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

A ton of great advice. Thank you.

There are high and low output MC. Since the higher would need less amplification wouldn't that mean less induced problems?

Don't laugh but one table that got my interest is the Music Hall MMF- 9.3. The table ships with the Goldring Eroica LX, Ortofon Quintet Black low output MCs or none. When I see something like this where the manufacturer choices are the same style of cartridge, in this case MC are they saying that tonearm is not suited for another style? Or just best suited for that style. I don't want to be sceptical assuming they are pushing certain products.

This touches on the crux of my question. Go with what is recommended or tinker = time and money.

Again thank you. I'm still studying your comments. If this was answered apologies I missed it.

As @DSJR has stated, turntables, arms and cartridges all interact. This is not based on some theoretical experience. I had a high quality turntable setup years before CDs were released - it was the only way to experience high quality commercial releases in the home.

I had an Ortofon VMS30 and I changed it for a P77 cartridge. I also had a Goldring Eroica cartridge. The door knocking sound just before Comfortably Numb (Pink Floyd The Wall) sounded different on all of them. Sometimes the door sounded large and resonant, other times it sounded smaller and "deader". I had no idea which was correct.

This is the reality. All the turntable arm and cartridges you are considering will sound different. That can be entertaining in its own right.

 

[BJL]

A ton of great advice. Thank you.

There are high and low output MC. Since the higher would need less amplification wouldn't that mean less induced problems?

Don't laugh but one table that got my interest is the Music Hall MMF- 9.3. The table ships with the Goldring Eroica LX, Ortofon Quintet Black low output MCs or none. When I see something like this where the manufacturer choices are the same style of cartridge, in this case MC are they saying that tonearm is not suited for another style? Or just best suited for that style. I don't want to be sceptical assuming they are pushing certain products.

This touches on the crux of my question. Go with what is recommended or tinker = time and money.

Again thank you. I'm still studying your comments. If this was answered apologies I missed it.

I had the same question of high output vs low output when I bought my current rig (Technics SL1200GR/Grado Reference3 cartridge). The Grado is (or was) available in a low output or high output version. I spoke with Grado (the person). He told me that the low output cartridges are in general more detailed than the high output cartridges. Modern phono preamps should not have any issues, and many come with more than sufficient gain for the lowest output cartridges. My Puffin of course does, but as an example of a pure analog device, the Musical Surrounding Phonomena III has up to 66 dB of gain. In 2024 you shouldn't need a transformer or moving coil step up preamp. Any preamp manufacturer will be able to tell you if their preamp has adequate gain for your cart.

As far as matching the cartridge is concerned, it looks like Music Hall has done that work for you. Even better if they mount the cartridge, which in some instances can be annoying.

You might also consider the Technics line, which are in a similar price range. They have medium compliance tonearms which work with most cartridges, and the manufacturer can confirm it. One thing great about Technics tables is that they are very easy to set up and it is very easy to get the cartridge mounted and set up properly with those tables. And they last forever. But I have heard that Music Hall is excellent, I don't think that you can go wrong. We are much better off in 2024, less fuss and bother to get everything up and running as compared to the bad old days.

 

[Drakon]

The Technics are removable headshells unlike the fixed Music Hall so choosing the correct cartridge is critical there. Thus the benefit of the cartridge arriving mounted with Music Hall.

I've only dealt with removable. For all their better performance I keep hearing how difficult it is to change fixed.

 

[Holmz]

As @DSJR has stated, turntables, arms and cartridges all interact. This is not based on some theoretical experience. I had a high quality turntable setup years before CDs were released - it was the only way to experience high quality commercial releases in the home.

I had an Ortofon VMS30 and I changed it for a P77 cartridge. I also had a Goldring Eroica cartridge. The door knocking sound just before Comfortably Numb (Pink Floyd The Wall) sounded different on all of them. Sometimes the door sounded large and resonant, other times it sounded smaller and "deader". I had no idea which was correct.

This is the reality. All the turntable arm and cartridges you are considering will sound different. That can be entertaining in its own right.

The p77i is an upgrade from the p77.

The build quality and lower cost and higher output sort of puts into onto the radar.
Obviates the need for a MC phono amp, or SUT.

I got it before upgrading my phono stage, and it is really lovely.
Comparable to the 2800 Euro “Bronze” at 800 AUD (500 USD).

It would not be unreasonable to have a few headshells if you arm support that.
I put on a Korf ceramic headshell, and that is IME a winner.

In the days of old, I had a car which I used for everything.
In the summer the alloy rims would be on it, with Dunlop (Someting), or Yokamama A08s.
In the winter the Pirelli Blizzaks on the steel rims would go onto it for driving to the ski hills.

Having a couple of carts on headshells seems like similar concept.
Still need to change the CTA and force, but each can b e shimmed as needed.

The MC cart I have is a handful of times the price of the p77i. And the phono stage it needed was not exactly cheap either.
One can get a headshell and cart, and be well down the road if there is existing phono stage.
Being sensible, I probably should have stopped there…

 

[Chrispy]

Personally MCs never appealed and I just make sure my cartridge is setup properly. I rarely use the tt these days, tho. My current cartridge is likely fine for the rest of my life barring any accidents

 

[Drakon]

My current cartridge is likely fine for the rest of my life barring any accidents

That's where I want to land.

 

[Steven Holt]

See post no. 2

 

[Balle Clorin]

Fixed headshell is a pain, I wound not by an arm with fixed again . I have SME V, takes 2days to make sure cartridge is set up properly, azimuth, VTA, SRA, channel balance frequency response, tracking all checked by a number of test records and USB microscope… . I could be done in 15 minutes if you do not bother optimizing it. But you are unlikely to get the best out of the cartridge. Go for a detachable headshell that has azimuth adjustment, and get the Ortofon test record and a Parks Audio Puffin/Waxwing and you can set up the cartridge better than professionals , and in less time: The technics tools makes setting up easy if you want it simple, just set be overhang by the Technics jig and mount straight and you are done.

 

[morillon]

Fixed headshell is a pain, I wound not by an arm with fixed again . I have SME V, takes 2days to make sure cartridge is set up properly, azimuth, VTA, SRA, channel balance frequency response, tracking all checked by a number of test records and USB microscope… . I could be done in 15 minutes if you do not bother optimizing it. But you are unlikely to get the best out of the cartridge. Go for a detachable headshell that has azimuth adjustment, and get the Ortofon test record and a Parks Audio Puffin/Waxwing and you can set up the cartridge better than professionals , and in less time: The technics tools makes setting up easy if you want it simple, just set be overhang by the Technics jig and mount straight and you are done.

if the idea is to take sufficient measurements to help with adjustments, there are much less expensive solutions, certainly a little less user-friendly and easy, than the park etc... a correct sound card used on the prephono and free software like rew multitones arta etc (or not very expensive in standard non asio version like virtins etc)
etc
and in real life..these are not adjustments that are done so often...not the sport that drives you and the passionate people who run the phono part of this forum ;-)

 

[Balle Clorin]

yes I know I am crazy.....