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Ah, spoken like someone who has never heard K-horns driven by a nice petitie class D amp in a properly sized room. The efficient speakers cry out for a very, very quiet amp.
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Tubes: Modern vs Vintage
- Thread starter watchnerd
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Ah, spoken like someone who has never heard K-horns driven by a nice petitie class D amp in a properly sized room. The efficient speakers cry out for a very, very quiet amp.
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Well it is a very good combination. Fellow has K-horns in a large room with 12 foot ceilings and enough room to place them properly into the corners with 8 feet of wall in each direction (actually more between them). The 30 watt class D (Tripath based) amp is dead quiet, and sounds very nice.
He is familiar with tubes. Previously using some modified Dyna 70's setup in triode.
Been awhile, but also knew someone with a pair in a finished basement of their home. Also in corners (the entire basement of this large home was one large listening room with a grand piano in the end opposite the speakers). He used some Bedini 25/25 class A SS amps after he tired of finding tubes too noisy. He hated noise and became an early adopter of CD for that reason.
If you want to experience the SET sound, find yourself an SET, and feed the output to an SS amp. Use with your regular speakers and you are a good part of the way there.
Not like I have heard all the good old, old speakers. K-horns were never quite my cup of tea, but in a large space can be fairly good. The old original Quads were surprisingly good. But they were dynamically limited though not so much as legend would have it. K-horns delivered dynamically,and better than many old speakers in other ways.
No never looked into it. I used a older ss PS Audio phono amp and a McCormack passive pre.
Noise was always an issue with the system as it was, the 12AT7 input tubes would give me a year or so before any brand I tried would get noisy.
In retrospect a great SS amp might be a great choice but good tubes do tend to soften a somewhat hard edge in the upper mids of KHorns.
I'd still be looking at something in the 80-100 wpc range, can never have too much headroom IMO. I felt it was a real comfort zone for the La Scala's
CuteStudio
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Ironically a very good class D (I.e. a cheap TPA3116 with decent components, layout and air-cored inductors) can sound very much like a top SET design. I think the lack of crossover distortion and the extremely fast feedback loop give them the 'air' of a no feedback amp (the magic (non)ingredient of SETs).
I reached the pinnacle of my tube insanity in the early 2000's shortly after retiring from IT. I was one of the "founders" of AudioAsylum.com, and moderated its three vacuum tube forums for a couple of years. My first amplifier was this Bell 6L6 mono amp purchased used for me by my father in 1958 when I was a junior in high school.
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My system 45 years later in 2002 was moderately priced by audiophile standards, but a rather exotic combination of components. It included a Yve Bernard Andre (YBA) "Audio Refinement" CD player and McIntosh MR74 tuner as sources. My preamp was a custom-made Supratek 6SN7 transformer-coupled unit from Mick Maloney of Western Australia (one of his first units - before he went to a more glitzy chrome look). That unit was replaced by a David Belles 21A preamp for more flexibility and options. My amplifier was another custom-made unit - a single-ended 2A3 stereo amplifier from Attilio Caccamo of Tektron in Italy with an output of about 3.5 WPC. My Speakers were the 99dB efficient Klipsch Forte II's (which have recently re-emerged as the Heritage Forte III's from Klipsch.)
Supratek and Tektron are still in business, and the links above will take you to their respective websites. Below are pics of the individual components taken when I sold the system to downsize and move into an apartment after my partner passed away and her family sold the house we shared. I sold the Forte II's to Charlie Kittleson of Vacuum Tube Valley, who lived not to far from me in Lake County, Northern California. Charlie published his low-budget quarterly "Vacuum Tube Valley" magazine for a number of years, and had friends who searched for old abandoned Radio/TV repair shops across the U.S. looking for stashes of NOS vacuum tubes. He had a little storefront in the town of Lakeport. All 20 issues of VTV are now available as free downloads HERE. Fun stuff for old "tubers" like me - and perhaps some of the older audio enthusiasts who hang out here at AudioScience.
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15 years later, I am living very happily - at the age of 76 - as an expatriate in the mountains of Western Panama. When I moved here in 2012, I brought a pair of Paradigm Atom monitors, a Teac A-H01 DAC/Amp (which died recently after a nearby lightening strike) and an Intel NUC which I use as an HTPC running LibreEec/Kodi. All of my music is now digital - a mix of MP3 and FLAC, plus I listen to internet radio.
Being on a limited budget, when the Teac died (fried chip on the main board), I bought an SMSL Q5 DAC/Amp for temporary use. In three weeks, I plan to order an MP-303 hybrid integrated amplifer (tube preamp section + Class-D power amp) from Musical Paradise, which for $188 appears to be an incredible bargain. I was pleasantly surprised to see Garry Huang of Musical Paradise here at on this thread at the AudioScience tubes forum.
One of the reasons I discovered and visited AudioScience recently - and just registered is that I am looking for a good, inexpensive DAC. As far as I can determine, there is no way to get USB digital out of myIntel NUC/Kodi (LibreElec) system. The MP-303 has a DAC on board - but it has only USB input. The ongoing discussion about the Topping 50 is excellent, but I may go with a $70-80 used SMSL Sanskrit 6th for the time being, and get the Topping later. In a region with lots of thunderstorms and heavy lightning - like here in the mountain rainforest - it is good to have spare components - even with good surge protection.
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My system 45 years later in 2002 was moderately priced by audiophile standards, but a rather exotic combination of components. It included a Yve Bernard Andre (YBA) "Audio Refinement" CD player and McIntosh MR74 tuner as sources. My preamp was a custom-made Supratek 6SN7 transformer-coupled unit from Mick Maloney of Western Australia (one of his first units - before he went to a more glitzy chrome look). That unit was replaced by a David Belles 21A preamp for more flexibility and options. My amplifier was another custom-made unit - a single-ended 2A3 stereo amplifier from Attilio Caccamo of Tektron in Italy with an output of about 3.5 WPC. My Speakers were the 99dB efficient Klipsch Forte II's (which have recently re-emerged as the Heritage Forte III's from Klipsch.)
Supratek and Tektron are still in business, and the links above will take you to their respective websites. Below are pics of the individual components taken when I sold the system to downsize and move into an apartment after my partner passed away and her family sold the house we shared. I sold the Forte II's to Charlie Kittleson of Vacuum Tube Valley, who lived not to far from me in Lake County, Northern California. Charlie published his low-budget quarterly "Vacuum Tube Valley" magazine for a number of years, and had friends who searched for old abandoned Radio/TV repair shops across the U.S. looking for stashes of NOS vacuum tubes. He had a little storefront in the town of Lakeport. All 20 issues of VTV are now available as free downloads HERE. Fun stuff for old "tubers" like me - and perhaps some of the older audio enthusiasts who hang out here at AudioScience.
------------------------------
15 years later, I am living very happily - at the age of 76 - as an expatriate in the mountains of Western Panama. When I moved here in 2012, I brought a pair of Paradigm Atom monitors, a Teac A-H01 DAC/Amp (which died recently after a nearby lightening strike) and an Intel NUC which I use as an HTPC running LibreEec/Kodi. All of my music is now digital - a mix of MP3 and FLAC, plus I listen to internet radio.
Being on a limited budget, when the Teac died (fried chip on the main board), I bought an SMSL Q5 DAC/Amp for temporary use. In three weeks, I plan to order an MP-303 hybrid integrated amplifer (tube preamp section + Class-D power amp) from Musical Paradise, which for $188 appears to be an incredible bargain. I was pleasantly surprised to see Garry Huang of Musical Paradise here at on this thread at the AudioScience tubes forum.
One of the reasons I discovered and visited AudioScience recently - and just registered is that I am looking for a good, inexpensive DAC. As far as I can determine, there is no way to get USB digital out of myIntel NUC/Kodi (LibreElec) system. The MP-303 has a DAC on board - but it has only USB input. The ongoing discussion about the Topping 50 is excellent, but I may go with a $70-80 used SMSL Sanskrit 6th for the time being, and get the Topping later. In a region with lots of thunderstorms and heavy lightning - like here in the mountain rainforest - it is good to have spare components - even with good surge protection.
No direct mention of the affect of tube bias on tube variation within and across brands. There is also the matter of Chinese and Eastern-bloc tubes being relabelled with Western tube IDs even though they do not have the same characteristics.
Tube swapping without knowing the performance specs. of the tubes and bias conditions is like running an audio lottery. Comparing such swaps across different amplifiers is usually pointless as operating conditions can vary.
Happily, the internet is one's friend when it comes to how-to information on using tubes.
Tube swapping without knowing the performance specs. of the tubes and bias conditions is like running an audio lottery. Comparing such swaps across different amplifiers is usually pointless as operating conditions can vary.
Happily, the internet is one's friend when it comes to how-to information on using tubes.
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Xulonn, Welcome to ASR forums!
Love the ole tube gear, I had a ton of it over the last half century and more. Had a nice smaller collection before I retired and moved to new digs too small to keep it. Understand how it feels to leave it all behind.
My last big system was Klispch La Scala's driven by VTL tube monoblocks, a seriously awesome sounding rig.
Thanks for the link, looks like I'll have a lot of fun reading it.
Enjoy your time here.
Sal
That sounds most odd, any usb port on the NUC should be configurable for use via Kodi once a USB dac is plugged in.
I was a bit confused by his statement also?
OP
watchnerd
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Thank you for that amazing history.
My tube dablings have been minimal compared to yours, but one of my prized possesions is a Fi Yph phono stage. by Don Garber. An absolute epitome of artisanal electronics craftsmanship. Alas, it now sits unused in my closet, as my Devialet Expert 400 has an amazing built-in, DSP based phonostage that makes the Yph superfluous and objectively inferior, although I do miss the looks and euphonia of the Yph from time to time.
Great post , thanks ..
Nice to see some of David’s designs there, I use belles pre and power in my setup. ( no tubes though)
svart-hvitt
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Got the tubes below today to be installed in my new DAC scheduled to arrive mid February. Promised myself & spouse no more tubes to avoid intervention from ASR ... ;-
Svetlana Winged C / 5U4G/5U3C-SVETLANA WINGED C
MATCHED 6N23P 6Н23П VOSKHOD Single Wire TUBE QUAD 6DJ8 E88CC
To be installed in this ...
Also ordered new caps, let's leave those for another thread ...
Tube DAC? This needs some explanation!
I’m curious: What do you intend to attain by tubing a DAC?
I'm kinda older - - assembled a mono Knight Kit pp-6bq5, a stereo Lafayette death trap (no power transformer), Eico ST40. For horn systems, a single ended tube amp is one way to go. I run my Klipschorns on a Crown XLS 2000. I built one single ended amp ~25 years back - and heavy so thieves
would not make off with it like what happened when I lived 50 feet from the County Jail. It weighs close to 100lb even
with the tiny One Electron UBT-1 output transformers If I had a really cool horn system, then would consider another SE tube amp -
probably like Drlowmu does them.
would not make off with it like what happened when I lived 50 feet from the County Jail. It weighs close to 100lb even
with the tiny One Electron UBT-1 output transformers If I had a really cool horn system, then would consider another SE tube amp -
probably like Drlowmu does them.
Problem with tubes is they're just so damn unreliable.
Bought this Atwater Kent 20C around 1978 working with these tubes in it. Have no idea how old these O1A tubes are but I'd bet money they're older than me. Haven't hooked up all the wires to its power supply in years but AFAIK it should still make the good noises
.
Bought this Atwater Kent 20C around 1978 working with these tubes in it. Have no idea how old these O1A tubes are but I'd bet money they're older than me. Haven't hooked up all the wires to its power supply in years but AFAIK it should still make the good noises
.
rebbiputzmaker
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Yes, a good joke!Problem with tubes is they're just so damn unreliable.
Bought this Atwater Kent 20C around 1978 working with these tubes in it. Have no idea how old these O1A tubes are but I'd bet money they're older than me. Haven't hooked up all the wires to its power supply in years but AFAIK it should still make the good noises
.
View attachment 13492
Tubes technology is very reliable, tubes just don't last forever. (but almost)
Just look at examples in history. Western Electric and communications. Transatlantic telephone cable repeaters were pretty reliable. (Service call in the ocean were pretty expensive)
http://strowger-net.telefoniemuseum.nl/tel_hist_tat1.html
Tubes making a comeback.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...istor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets
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I remember what a huge deal it was back around 1960 for my grandmother to call her sister in Italy from the US. She hadn't spoken to her since she left there like 40 years before and neither could read or write much for letters.
Hi.
I have been looking to replace my broken (smashed) tubes in my recently acquired tube amp.
After much looking and research, I went with new production 6sn7's and recently (80's?) NOS 6as7s.
Vintage tubes seem just too much of either a gamble (eBay) or expense (dealer).
I have the impression that the vintage stocks are mostly sold or perished.
I don't get the unicorn valves hype tbh. As in any other hobby practiced by bored men with too much money, it seems the best stock is the rarest. (Go figure).
Reviews on the new production stuff seem favourable. Good job as well because if not, or without NP valves being made, I wonder if selling amps which rely on this ever more finite resource would actually be feasible.
Tube threads on other forums are awash with subjectivity. No mention of tube measurements or DBT to be had either, which, was a major factor in me going for the more recent tubes and not hunting for esoteric unicorn valves of yesteryear.
I figured that going NP was the most rational approach in what seems a massively emotional and subjective game.
You can get seemingly good/great tubes new production for £20 a pop. You can also buy unicorn valves (Marconi?) For £1k and up.
I don't believe that the difference in price is solely for the sonic differences!.
Still, if you want to spend that amount of cash on a label, fill your boots..
mhardy6647
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someone say tubes?!?
DSC_0121 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
I will say this -- "modern" vacuum tube circuitry is much less sensitive to "tube rolling" than are early designs (e.g., single-ended amplifiers, like the one in the photo above, with no negative feedback and relatively high output impedance).
Sort of on topic. I just kinda smile & shake my head when folks tout tube rolling in, e.g., vacuum tube buffers (cathode followers). A properly designed and constructed buffer won't do much more than buffer impedance (mismatches) -- draw one's own conclusions.
DSC_0121 (2) by Mark Hardy, on FlickrI will say this -- "modern" vacuum tube circuitry is much less sensitive to "tube rolling" than are early designs (e.g., single-ended amplifiers, like the one in the photo above, with no negative feedback and relatively high output impedance).
Sort of on topic. I just kinda smile & shake my head when folks tout tube rolling in, e.g., vacuum tube buffers (cathode followers). A properly designed and constructed buffer won't do much more than buffer impedance (mismatches) -- draw one's own conclusions.
