Tube sound - what the artist/engineer intended?

[RexrothPigeon]

My buddy is highly empathic, way too much in my opinion, likes to see things from another's point of view. This is him imagining himself as an audio engineer in the 50s...lol.

This isn't empathy, it's fantasy and projection

 

[Sal1950]

As a youngster this was my tube amp'd turntable HiFi.
I had a few of them over the years.

 

[Robin L]

Apples and oranges.
In most cases Wilma was using very minimalist miking techniques from single to 3 mike styling, resulting in the perfect "audiophile" type recordings.
Phil was pushing the envelop of multitrack creations doing things never done before. He was a genius in the mixing room, using bouncing techniques to
create a final product with we think nothing of with todays unlimited virgin track recording. Not "audiophile" product for sure, but a "Wall Of Sound" mixdown that couldn't have been done otherwise.

The "Wall of Sound" still sounds like shit on good playback gear.

 

[mhardy6647]

The "Wall of Sound" still sounds like shit on good playback gear.

that it does.
So does the eponymous first album by "Boston" (Tom Scholz).

 

[Robin L]

that it does.
So does the eponymous first album by "Boston" (Tom Scholz).

It's been decades since the last time I listened to "Boston's" debut album.

Not that I'm tempted to hear it again, mind you.

Back to "The Wall of Sound"—there were many Rock/Pop productions from the 1950s and early 1960s that did have good sound, like Roy Orbison's run of singles at Monument.

 

[mhardy6647]

It's been decades since the last time I listened to "Boston's" debut album.

Not that I'm tempted to hear it again, mind you.

Back to "The Wall of Sound"—there were many Rock/Pop productions from the 1950s and early 1960s that did have good sound, like Roy Orbison's run of singles at Monument.

Yes, even though teen pop music was the "red headed stepchild" so to speak of music production (cf. the Beatles' ending up on Parlophone with a more-or-less nobody producer called George Martin* who'd been producing comedy and spoken word recordings for a living), some of it sounded fine indeed.
Heck, the early Beatles recordings sound good to me on good hardware.

_________________
* OK, I guess he was head of A&R for Parlophone, as well -- but it was still kind of a second-rate label at the time.

Sir George Martin 1926 – 2016 | Burl Audio

www.burlaudio.com

 

[Deleted member 87496]

This isn't empathy, it's fantasy and projection

You may be onto something. Can you provide a more detailed why "empathy" is the wrong word here?

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, even though teen pop music was the "red headed stepchild" so to speak of music production (cf. the Beatles' ending up on Parlophone with a more-or-less nobody producer called George Martin* who'd been producing comedy and spoken word recordings for a living), some of it sounded fine indeed.
Heck, the early Beatles recordings sound good to me on good hardware.

_________________
* OK, I guess he was head of A&R for Parlophone, as well -- but it was still kind of a second-rate label at the time.

Sir George Martin 1926 – 2016 | Burl Audio

www.burlaudio.com

Beatles - Let It Be produced by Phil,
Long Winding Road, maybe the defining Beatles cut.
OH wait, it sounds like shit too.

He was the inventor and king of layered modern music, a freakin musical genius but no matter,
So Sad for Phil, shoot one drunkin chick and he doesn't get any respect.
Warren Zevon - Excitable Boy

Taylor Who ?

 

[wadude]

The "Wall of Sound" still sounds like shit on good playback gear.

Compared to what?! What about those abrasive guiro scrapes on, “He Hit Me (And It Felt Like a Kiss)! Or the overall sound of “River Deep, Mountain High”? Didn’t Brian Wilson pick up those production values, throw in some Cali car and beach teen scenes and run that ball in for the score?!

I know…it’s not possible to forget about the guns and the woman’s life; what a pathetic mutha. But there were other talented folks involved with those records and it would be sad to leave them out of the story of Rock.

 

[wadude]

that it does.
So does the eponymous first album by "Boston" (Tom Scholz).

I’ve never bothered.

 

[wadude]

Yes, even though teen pop music was the "red headed stepchild" so to speak of music production (cf. the Beatles' ending up on Parlophone with a more-or-less nobody producer called George Martin* who'd been producing comedy and spoken word recordings for a living), some of it sounded fine indeed.
Heck, the early Beatles recordings sound good to me on good hardware.

_________________
* OK, I guess he was head of A&R for Parlophone, as well -- but it was still kind of a second-rate label at the time.

Sir George Martin 1926 – 2016 | Burl Audio

www.burlaudio.com

I like listening for the splices!

 

[Robin L]

Beatles - Let It Be produced by Phil,

Recorded by Glyn Johns, more or less produced by the group. "Overproduced by Phil Spector", as George Martin (who was more responsible than anyone else for the actual job of producing what eventually was called "Let it Be") said:

And when he complained to them, they only added insult to injury. “Well, we wouldn’t have your name on the album,” an EMI executive told him, “Because Phil Spector’s now produced it.” So, despite being the one who organised the studio sessions and put in the control room recording live takes of every song as the band wanted, Martin’s name would be left off Let It Be entirely in the official credits.

The Beatles’ longtime producer had the last laugh, though. Spector’s input on the album has been widely derided since its release, while Martin’s work on the group’s recordings has only grown in stature. More than 20 years after the eventual release of Let It Be, he recalled the witty riposte he gave to EMI when they told him he wasn’t getting credited. “Let’s have a compromise,” he suggested. “Why don’t you say: ‘Produced by George Martin, overproduced by Phil Spector’?” For Paul McCartney, as well as millions of Beatles fans around the world, that’s exactly how the credits should read.

Paul was furious at what Spector did to his tracks on "Let it Be".

Long Winding Road, maybe the defining Beatles cut.
OH wait, it sounds like shit too.

Paul McCartney, as regards Spector's changes to that cut:
Dear Sir,

In future, no one will be allowed to add to or subtract from a recording of one of my songs without my permission.

I had considered orchestrating ‘The Long And Winding Road’ but I had decided against it. I, therefore, want it altered to these specifications:-

1. Strings, horns, voices and all added noises to be reduced in volume.
2. Vocal and Beatle instrumentation to be brought up in volume.
3. Harp to be removed completely at the end of the song and original piano notes to be substituted.
4. Don’t ever do it again.

Signed

Paul McCartney

c.c. Phil Spector
John Eastman

He was the inventor and king of layered modern music, a freakin musical genius but no matter,

I think you're confusing him with Les Paul.

So Sad for Phil, shoot one drunkin chick and he doesn't get any respect.

But let's not mention his long and well-known history of waving loaded guns in the general direction of artists he produced while inhaling vast quantities of cocaine . . .

. . . not to mention holding Ronnie Spector captive until she managed to barely escape:

"I can only say that when I left in the early ‘70s, I knew that if I didn’t leave at that time, I was going to die there," the star wrote.

Otherwise, a fine upstanding citizen who died in prison, convicted of murder.

 

[Robin L]

Compared to what?! What about those abrasive guiro scrapes on, “He Hit Me (And It Felt Like a Kiss)!

The title kinds says it, don't you think?

Or the overall sound of “River Deep, Mountain High”?

Better than his usual average, which didn't do him a bit of good on the pop charts.

Didn’t Brian Wilson pick up those production values, throw in some Cali car and beach teen scenes and run that ball in for the score?!

But Brian had a much finer ear for production, even if he only had one ear.

I know…it’s not possible to forget about the guns and the woman’s life; what a pathetic mutha. But there were other talented folks involved with those records and it would be sad to leave them out of the story of Rock.

These days known as "The Wrecking Crew"—bassist Carol Kaye hates that moniker, btw. But in any case, yes, there was a roster of first call session musicians that emerged from the Wall of Sound sessions that left their mark on more top 40 classics than you can shake a stick at. Including the aforementioned Brian Wilson productions.

 

[wadude]

1) Yes, and the guiro socks it home. If one relates to the lyric, they’d better seek therapy.
2) A tortured classic, but powerful on so many levels; the songwriting, the lyrics, the performance. Figures that a guy like Ike would be involved.
3) That was my point!
4) Yes, the musicians, but also the many artists he produced.

A friend turned me onto a couple of Jack Nitzsche compilations, an associate of Spector’s and another guy, apparently weird with guns and women, that produced some great records.

The music business attracts some wacked individuals.

EDIT: I, Me, Mine turned out well.

 

[Sal1950]

Truthfullly, from Wilma Cozart Fine productions of Mercury Records classical division, to Phil Spectors "Wall of Sound" rock, they were just trying to record to tape the very best Hi-Fi they could get.

Ya know I may have stepped on my words when I used the term Hi-Fi, (which was barely invented yet) in that sentence but still Phil was trying to do things with music production and recording that no one had done before. His "Wall Of Sound" was making a very dense, busy sound that I believe, at lease for me, was a big part of what sent many of us down the Hi-Fi road. I wanted to better hear all those layers he and others were trying to put into the mix. So ya, many of his productions could get nasty sounding because unfortunately the technology didn't yet exist to present it cleanly. A chicken or egg situation, I don't know? I do know he was trying to create modern MUSIC that sounded better than most anything being done for the time.

But let's not mention his long and well-known history of waving loaded guns in the general direction of artists he produced while inhaling vast quantities of cocaine . . .

Maybe you've led your life as a saint but speaking for myself, the ole phrase that says it all for me is
"There but for the Grace of God go I"
I've had more than a couple good friends in my life who made a few bad judgement calls one night and spent the rest of their life's paying for it.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

You may be onto something. Can you provide a more detailed why "empathy" is the wrong word here?

Empathy = feeling other people's feelings, experiencing their feelings as your own because you care about them and/or have functioning mirror neurons

Your friend is cosplaying the feelings of people based on nothing except his own fantasies and projections since he has no access to their feeling at all

 

[RexrothPigeon]

So ya, many of his productions could get nasty sounding because unfortunately the technology didn't yet exist to present it cleanly

The whole intent was to build layers until they were a single wall of sound, blending together inseparably. That "nasty sound" is what he was going for.

 

[Sal1950]

The whole intent was to build layers until they were a single wall of sound, blending together inseparably. That "nasty sound" is what he was going for.

I don't believe nasty was the result he intended by trying to fold in large orchestral musical support to what was considered simple 3 chord styling?
Too bad he's not around to ask.

 

[wadude]

The reverb wash, can’t forget that. No intention of hi fidelity there.

I’m always amazed by his work on the Righteous Brothers, “You’ve Lost that Lovin’ Feeling,” where it starts, where it goes. Fred Foster did similar things with Orbison, “Running Scared,” etc.

Spector brought so many influences into Rock production. In “He Hit Me…” it’s easy to hear echoes of “West Side Story.”

Also, it seems that Spector was dealing with mental illness compounded by his drug intake. Not to mention an out of control ego encouraged by those around him, as happens with those who want to continue the cash flow.

 

[Chr1]

I would love to know the opinion of a knowledgeable/qualified sound engineer/producer on this.

I have come across differing opinions online about his skills. Some say that it could have been done better.
Clearly he was a real inovator, in terms of new and creative ways of producing and mixing. But how technically competent was he?
And how much was any dificiency in sound quality just down to limitations of the technology of the time etc?