• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Tube sound - what the artist/engineer intended?

Could be worse... :)






I quite literally grew up with EICO stuff -- my father loved their hifi and service equipment kits and built many for himself and for others.
That scroungy looking HFT-90 FM mono tuner in one of the photos above is the very one I grew up with. The AF-4 stereo integrated SE EL84 integrated below it has been in my family for its whole existence as well.

Pro tip ;) Give serious consideration to one of their stereo power amps (or two of their monoblock power amps) HF-89, HF-87, HF-14, or HF-86-- EICO used reliable circuit designs with excellent to outstanding quality output iron. Their PTs, though, did tend to be a little undersized for the VA demands put upon them and tend to run hot, especially with today's higher (US) AC mains voltage. In some cases (the HF-81 being one), slightly beefed-up drop-in replacement PT are still available - in the case of the HF-81, still available from the company that made the originals(!), Heyboer. :)

“I got a tube fever, and the only prescription is more Eico.”
1758838971101.jpeg
 
Could be worse... :)






I quite literally grew up with EICO stuff -- my father loved their hifi and service equipment kits and built many for himself and for others.
That scroungy looking HFT-90 FM mono tuner in one of the photos above is the very one I grew up with. The AF-4 stereo integrated SE EL84 integrated below it has been in my family for its whole existence as well.

Pro tip ;) Give serious consideration to one of their stereo power amps (or two of their monoblock power amps) HF-89, HF-87, HF-14, or HF-86-- EICO used reliable circuit designs with excellent to outstanding quality output iron. Their PTs, though, did tend to be a little undersized for the VA demands put upon them and tend to run hot, especially with today's higher (US) AC mains voltage. In some cases (the HF-81 being one), slightly beefed-up drop-in replacement PT are still available - in the case of the HF-81, still available from the company that made the originals(!), Heyboer. :)
Love the pics, incredible. I remember my family's Scott amp and Garrard turntable from when I was a young child - they were replaced by more modern stuff along the way, and I'm assuming thrown out. It'd be cool to have those old components now, if only for nostalgic purposes. My childhood seems like 7 lifetimes ago...lol.
 
There are a number of “classic” tube amp designs. Getting a good deal on a McIntosh tube amp is never going to be bad as you likely can resell it for its cost with little depreciation. if I were buying tube amps today, I’d look for the big names like Mc, Marantz, Conrad, Audio Research, maybe Cary, probably a few others. I’m not convinced buying newly manufactured versions of these classic designs isn’t a terrible idea from value perspective though. The view of tube amps being better in the audiophile community isn’t what it was 30 years ago. Also, the cost of the tubes themselves is at an all time high. So unless you just love blowing money, tube rolling is prohibitive. That said, I have a Cary integrated tube amp I’ve loved very much for 30 years. I don’t use it much, it sits in a spare bedroom with some B&W speakers. But it’s fun to flip the switch on 42lbs of glowing lights and metal once in awhile. It sounds fine to my ears and at lower listening levels I’d challenge most anyone to hear much of a difference vs. my current Yamaha solid state amp in a blind test.
I hope to keep it simple i.e. not too expensive. I have no plans to tube roll or get into that...yikes. One and done. And really, only for listening to old albums, from the 40s, 50s, and 60s - though a large part of my listening. Many thanks for the advice and sharing your expertise!
 
Thanks for the post, good stuff. After thinking about this and everyone's responses since my original post, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I intend to make my guiding principle in this particular situation one of enjoyment, not "transparency."
True, though.. if a consumer is enjoying transparency it also applies. These days are like candy markets for hi-fi enthusiasts of all kinds. If I would have to give it a label, it is all about illusions and which illusion you favor over another :)
Btw, not for nothing, but in my original post, my question wasn't simply re: the sound in the recording studio. My point was that engineers and producers before, say, 1965, created the final recording in the studio that they knew would then be heard in the home through a tube amplifier and their colorations (though the Dynaco ST 70 tested pretty well with Amir). But I'm guessing many popular amplifiers at the time, e.g., Scotts and Fishers, wouldn't measure well today.
It was their studio gear, that was key, and getting a good master tape. Many producers were not that happy with the record as a medium they should transfer it to. Just because it added coloration and bass management was often challenging . I don't really think they were concerned about tube amps at all, as the record itself was already a minor point of irritation. And if they were concerned about gear, they were most likely concerned about the low-end of things . The less durable record players and cheap sets the masses had that bought the record, not so much the high-end market. Many producers had 'the worst gear' in mind as in 'if it plays great on this thing, it plays great on anything'. This is still kind of a thing, that also led to the loudness war. Pushing sound over noisy car engines, crowded shops and work floors with machines always had priority above anything. Most of the noise of that is in the midrange. The mass of people should buy the record, if the view audiophiles do it, it is a bonus.

What is good to know that at this time, the production side pushed inches in the hi-fi world we have seen until the point records and tube amplifiers made a comeback. Because records were still a medium in the 70s (till the production side celebrated the CD in the 80s) and they considered solid state to be at least a little step into more clarity. Then came the CD and it was a game changer in its ability to produce a crystal clear outcome in which the master sounded more like its extract.

But.. long story short, consumers were exposed to CD and solid state for a long enough time till boredom struck and at a certain point people got nostalgic or just interested about the coloration of a tube amp and the rituals that go along with spinning a record.


I admittedly might be wrong about that, though. Based on this thread, I have my eyes peeled for a restored ST 70 and its matching preamp - I'm especially curious how Billie Holiday sounds through it. Many thanks for sharing your thoughts.
You probably have already seen this one. Seems to be a great one.

I honestly say that I would be happy to borrow a tube amp and a record player for a weekend. Especially those kind of tube amps should be considered a piece of art to look at, apart from the sound. But I would not like to live with them. For one, it weighs in on the energy bill, and the second reason is that when components break down, finding and replacing them might be challenging. Some solid state amps that are being described as having a similar sound are something I'm into, that is why I got the sansui au505. And I know it might also consume electricity compared to class D. But well. :)

Little tip.. to get back to the illusion mentioned at the beginning. Get a little subwoofer or use one if you own one, especially for those walking basslines in Jazz it gives this extra floor (literally) of experience for the upright bass, adding a bit of dimension similar to a live experience.
 
Thanks for the post, good stuff. After thinking about this and everyone's responses since my original post, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I intend to make my guiding principle in this particular situation one of enjoyment, not "transparency." Btw, not for nothing, but in my original post, my question wasn't simply re: the sound in the recording studio. My point was that engineers and producers before, say, 1965, created the final recording in the studio that they knew would then be heard in the home through a tube amplifier and their colorations (though the Dynaco ST 70 tested pretty well with Amir). But I'm guessing many popular amplifiers at the time, e.g., Scotts and Fishers, wouldn't measure well today. I admittedly might be wrong about that, though. Based on this thread, I have my eyes peeled for a restored ST 70 and its matching preamp - I'm especially curious how Billie Holiday sounds through it. Many thanks for sharing your thoughts.
“One and done” is a nice thought, but the reality of tube hifi is more personally involving. It’s a hobby, more like a lifestyle, in and of itself. A beautiful rabbit hole. I’m with you on finding a good Stereo 70 or other fine tube power amp. I’d think twice about the Dyna preamp. A matching set is historically cool and makes for a nice looking audio shelf. The PAS2 has a nice feature set but in my experience was a bottleneck from a sound and transparency standpoint. There are much better options out there. Better to find a good switching passive and add a separate phono preamp if you’re into vinyl.
 
True, though.. if a consumer is enjoying transparency it also applies. These days are like candy markets for hi-fi enthusiasts of all kinds. If I would have to give it a label, it is all about illusions and which illusion you favor over another :)

It was their studio gear, that was key, and getting a good master tape. Many producers were not that happy with the record as a medium they should transfer it to. Just because it added coloration and bass management was often challenging . I don't really think they were concerned about tube amps at all, as the record itself was already a minor point of irritation. And if they were concerned about gear, they were most likely concerned about the low-end of things . The less durable record players and cheap sets the masses had that bought the record, not so much the high-end market. Many producers had 'the worst gear' in mind as in 'if it plays great on this thing, it plays great on anything'. This is still kind of a thing, that also led to the loudness war. Pushing sound over noisy car engines, crowded shops and work floors with machines always had priority above anything. Most of the noise of that is in the midrange. The mass of people should buy the record, if the view audiophiles do it, it is a bonus.

What is good to know that at this time, the production side pushed inches in the hi-fi world we have seen until the point records and tube amplifiers made a comeback. Because records were still a medium in the 70s (till the production side celebrated the CD in the 80s) and they considered solid state to be at least a little step into more clarity. Then came the CD and it was a game changer in its ability to produce a crystal clear outcome in which the master sounded more like its extract.

But.. long story short, consumers were exposed to CD and solid state for a long enough time till boredom struck and at a certain point people got nostalgic or just interested about the coloration of a tube amp and the rituals that go along with spinning a record.



You probably have already seen this one. Seems to be a great one.

I honestly say that I would be happy to borrow a tube amp and a record player for a weekend. Especially those kind of tube amps should be considered a piece of art to look at, apart from the sound. But I would not like to live with them. For one, it weighs in on the energy bill, and the second reason is that when components break down, finding and replacing them might be challenging. Some solid state amps that are being described as having a similar sound are something I'm into, that is why I got the sansui au505. And I know it might also consume electricity compared to class D. But well. :)

Little tip.. to get back to the illusion mentioned at the beginning. Get a little subwoofer or use one if you own one, especially for those walking basslines in Jazz it gives this extra floor (literally) of experience for the upright bass, adding a bit of dimension similar to a live experience.
I really enjoyed reading your engaging response, makes me wonder if you're a writer. :) Yes, we do choose our illusions. In the past decade or so, physicists have seriously considered that our universe is holographic, and one physicist from Berkeley said we all might be holograms projected from the information contained in black holes. It boggles the mind, why I love science, its tagline could easily be, Nothing appears as it is. Re audio, I'm a bit worried about the maintenance factor of tube amps, I know it can be a thing, why I'd only consider one that's fully restored by a reputable tech. Even biasing tubes on occasion could prove challenging to me...lol. A sub is on my list. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't need a thunderous one, just for music and one that fills out the sound a little. Something like the smallest REL,Tzero, described more of a mid-woofer but may be just the ticket with my bookshelf speakers in a smallish room at low-moderate listening volume. Again many thanks for your thoughtful post!
 
“One and done” is a nice thought, but the reality of tube hifi is more personally involving. It’s a hobby, more like a lifestyle, in and of itself. A beautiful rabbit hole. I’m with you on finding a good Stereo 70 or other fine tube power amp. I’d think twice about the Dyna preamp. A matching set is historically cool and makes for a nice looking audio shelf. The PAS2 has a nice feature set but in my experience was a bottleneck from a sound and transparency standpoint. There are much better options out there. Better to find a good switching passive and add a separate phono preamp if you’re into vinyl.
You're not the only one cautioning about the Dynaco preamp. Many thanks for the advice. I need to do some more research i.e good preamps to pair with the ST 70. Some of the other recommended tube amps in this thread are compelling, too. So many options! I'm in no rush, so I can wait to see what comes up on the used market that is calling out my name...lol. Many thanks of sharing your thoughts!
 
You're not the only one cautioning about the Dynaco preamp. Many thanks for the advice. I need to do some more research i.e good preamps to pair with the ST 70. Some of the other recommended tube amps in this thread are compelling, too. So many options! I'm in no rush, so I can wait to see what comes up on the used market that is calling out my name...lol. Many thanks of sharing your thoughts!
Also, look into 7199 tube availability and your options concerning modifications or adapters available for using other tubes. These tubes are used in various Dynaco amps including the ST70.
 
Also, look into 7199 tube availability and your options concerning modifications or adapters available for using other tubes. These tubes are used in various Dynaco amps including the ST70.
Good advice, thanks. What I've read, the 7199 tubes are expensive and hard to come by, and some of the restored ones have that adapter. From what I can tell, it's not a big deal, but I'm still researching. :) Does the researching in this hobby ever end, btw? :D
 
Good advice, thanks. What I've read, the 7199 tubes are expensive and hard to come by, and some of the restored ones have that adapter. From what I can tell, it's not a big deal, but I'm still researching. :) Does the researching in this hobby ever end, btw? :D
I have had ST-70's with the 7199 and with the adapters and 6GH8 and could not tell any difference. Here is a video comparing actual measurements, and it does not look like much of any difference between the two.
 
The research and futzing is at least half the fun of hifi no matter what. Tubes are just a longer read!

I used adapters and a substitute tube (can’t remember which type) in a pair of MKIVs and they worked great! They didn’t fit in my SCA35; they place the tubes too high for the cage to fit over. I’m considering a mod to the board that allows for a different tube type.

Sovtek 7199s work well in the MKIVs but created hum in the SCA35. I’ve read that it’s a repinned version of another tube.

I really enjoyed my time with the Dynaco amps and other components.

Hifi is a great hobby and then you get to listen to music too!
 
Last edited:
I have had ST-70's with the 7199 and with the adapters and 6GH8 and could not tell any difference. Here is a video comparing actual measurements, and it does not look like much of any difference between the two.
Good to know, many thanks! The last thing I'd want to deal with is having to replace hard-to-fine and expensive tubes.
 
The research and futzing is at least half the fun of hifi no matter what. Tubes are just a longer read!

I used adapters and a substitute tube (can’t remember which type) in a pair of MKIVs and they worked great! They didn’t fit in my SCA35; they place the tubes too high for the cage to fit over. I’m considering a mod to the board that allows for a different tube type.

Sovtek 7199s work well in the MKIVs but created hum in the SCA35. I’ve read that it’s a repinned version of another tube.

I really enjoyed my time with the Dynaco amps and other components.

Hifi is a great hobby and then you get to listen to music too!
Finding a rewarding system, with different components, is lots of fun and very engaging. And as you point out, so is the music...lol. Sometimes I forget the music part, thanks for the reminder.
 
I wouldn’t have missed out on that interest…I spent lots of time in the university library magazine stacks absorbing stories about the trends and brands from the late forties through the late sixties. We used to have hifi stores with shelves filled with classic hifi. There’s one in Auburn, CA that takes it right back. Follow your heart, man.
 
First, I did not read the entire thread... skimmed through most if it..
I am a Tube mostly kind of listener.
Every ones impression on tubes is different, but I can say first hand, depending on what tube gear you have
that "tube" sound you may be looking for may not be there at all.

To cut right to it, Nelson Pass from Pass Labs or First Watt who designs some of the best solid state amps is a fellow DIYer..
The easy, cheap and simple method if you have separate preamp and amp is to insert what Nelson Pass designed, the H2V2, or 2nd order harmonic generator version 2.
Its a kit, well under $50 bucks and can be built without any gain (or unity gain).
It adds 1% 2nd order harmonics which appears to be the "magic" number for most.
This simple box can add just a little of what tubes can do, without all of fuss.

The 1% 2nd order harmonics is barley audible
but, it does add something to the music.

Id recommend giving it a whirl, for only a few bucks you should hear a difference. You will have to decide if you like it.
 
First, I did not read the entire thread... skimmed through most if it..
I am a Tube mostly kind of listener.
Every ones impression on tubes is different, but I can say first hand, depending on what tube gear you have
that "tube" sound you may be looking for may not be there at all.

To cut right to it, Nelson Pass from Pass Labs or First Watt who designs some of the best solid state amps is a fellow DIYer..
The easy, cheap and simple method if you have separate preamp and amp is to insert what Nelson Pass designed, the H2V2, or 2nd order harmonic generator version 2.
Its a kit, well under $50 bucks and can be built without any gain (or unity gain).
It adds 1% 2nd order harmonics which appears to be the "magic" number for most.
This simple box can add just a little of what tubes can do, without all of fuss.

The 1% 2nd order harmonics is barley audible
but, it does add something to the music.

Id recommend giving it a whirl, for only a few bucks you should hear a difference. You will have to decide if you like it.

In other words: a way to take all the fun out of tubes ;-)
 
I don't want to mimic a tube; I want the genuine article. The looks and the fiddly nature of them (you gotta adjust the bias current-you gotta clean yer glass!) is part of the draw, and they can sound good. They don't need to be distortion factories, although that's available if wanted.
 
I don't want to mimic a tube; I want the genuine article.

Yep.

It’s kind of like: “ hey did you know that you can rip your vinyl records to digital files and listen to them on the go on your phone?”

It’s a utilitarian approach that kind of misses lots of the point.

I’d certainly hate to see my beautiful tube lamps replaced with some anonymous little module. And even then it might not be producing precisely the same interaction and distortion characteristics as my amp does.
 
First, I did not read the entire thread... skimmed through most if it..
I am a Tube mostly kind of listener.
Every ones impression on tubes is different, but I can say first hand, depending on what tube gear you have
that "tube" sound you may be looking for may not be there at all.

To cut right to it, Nelson Pass from Pass Labs or First Watt who designs some of the best solid state amps is a fellow DIYer..
The easy, cheap and simple method if you have separate preamp and amp is to insert what Nelson Pass designed, the H2V2, or 2nd order harmonic generator version 2.
Its a kit, well under $50 bucks and can be built without any gain (or unity gain).
It adds 1% 2nd order harmonics which appears to be the "magic" number for most.
This simple box can add just a little of what tubes can do, without all of fuss.

The 1% 2nd order harmonics is barley audible
but, it does add something to the music.

Id recommend giving it a whirl, for only a few bucks you should hear a difference. You will have to decide if you like it.
The perfect gizmo for blind testing! ...and I am not being facetious, nor denigrating of Pass... he knows how to design stuff to sound the way he and his market wants it to sound.

I don't want to mimic a tube; I want the genuine article. The looks and the fiddly nature of them (you gotta adjust the bias current-you gotta clean yer glass!) is part of the draw, and they can sound good. They don't need to be distortion factories, although that's available if wanted.
Two words:
cathode.
bias.
:cool:

1759090207129.jpeg

source: https://jelabsarch.blogspot.com/2012/06/je-labs-simple-452a3.html

That's how we roll at my house. ;)
 
Last edited:
It’s kind of like: “ hey did you know that you can rip your vinyl records to digital files and listen to them on the go on your phone?”
or just get one of these...


1759090065946.png
 
Back
Top Bottom