Tube sound - what the artist/engineer intended?

[egellings]

I, like you, listen to a lot of older music and recordings. I do not think your amp technology is at issue all. Many older recorders were mixed and masters for the formats of the day: 45s, or AM radio (and small single woofer speakers). As such, they were mixed with reduced low bass energy and reduced high end clarity... realistically just missing the frequency extremes. So the music will sit 'comfortable' within a full range amp.

You may want to explore vintage gear for the fun of it all... but I wouldn't stress.

Agree, I have the most venerable Maranta 8B tube amplifier as well as a pair of McIntosh MC-30 mono tube amps. The 8B I bought used with a fried power transformer because a previous owner gooped on excessive power supply capacitance, clobbering the poor thing. I ordered a custom replacement in a toroidal format from a transformer winder and that bought the most venerable 8B back to life. I made mounting hardware that holds the toroid in the same position as the original transformer. I ditched the excessive capacitance. The stiffer toroidal xfmr gave the 8B a couple of extra watts of output power, to boot. The MC-30's were fine and just needed the usual capacitor & a few resistor replacements and a good cosmetic cleaning. I also have a Bryston 4Bst BJT amplifier that I repaired for someone who passed away while I had the amplifier. I had the amp for about 3 weeks, with most of the time spent waiting for replacement parts to arrive. When I called its owner to return his repaired amp, I got no answers, and eventually the phone number was disconnected. I found out later that the owner had passed away suddenly, and he lived alone, so I had no one to return the amplifier to. I've had the 4Bst for over a decade now, so I consider it mine. It is a very excellent amplifier, way more powerful than I'd ever need.

 

[levimax]

See if it's possible to borrow or rent a tube amp setup for a couple of listening sessions with your system and see for yourself if there is anything to it. If you find it unappealing, then there's no loss when you return the amplifier setup except for shipping and maybe rental fees.

The psychoacoustic power of tube amps is incredibly high, it is almost 100% certain that if you hook up a tube amp and can see it that is will sound "better" or "more authentic vintage" or something similar. The only way to do it would be blind testing but that adds a lot of complication.

 

[Robin L]

Well you know a heck of a lot more than I do about these parameters and I see no reason to disagree with your disagreement re: "recorded on tubes must be played on tubes" Your answer is a technical one, but I was also referring to artistic intention. Back in the day, 50s and early-mid 60s say, wouldn't the artist/producer/engineer team understand that their recording would be played and heard through tube amplification (say a Scott or Fisher amp in someone's home) and therefore do their tweaking, engineering, and recording within that framework and expectation? In other words, wouldn't they intend their music to be heard through the tubes amps of the day? If so, should we honor their artistic vision and intention, by listening to those olden recordings with, for instance, one of those Scotts or Fishers? I don't know the answer, why I am asking, but it seems like a logical question to ask.

The point always has been to use the best possible signal chain to record and playback sessions. In the fifties engineers didn't use tube gear because they could choose between tube and solid-state gear. Recording engineers only had tube gear back then. If they had better gear to work with, they would (and did). Those older recordings usually sound better played back through more modern gear. One can make some adjustments in EQ to get around the limitations of the older recordings, but the short answer is that older recordings sound best when reproduced through the best gear. And the better the tube gear, the more closely it resembles the best solid-state gear.

 

[egellings]

The psychoacoustic power of tube amps is incredibly high, it is almost 100% certain that if you hook up a tube amp and can see it that is will sound "better" or "more authentic vintage" or something similar. The only way to do it would be blind testing but that adds a lot of complication.

Agree about the visual charm of a tube amp. I see my equipment when playing it, and enjoy the view of my circlotron-style home brewed 140 watt mono blocks (85 pounds each, and you need one for each ear) with stupidly oversized transformers. That's part of my listening experience, enjoying the glowing view as well as the sound, which, when done right, will not add 'tubey' coloration to the sound. I also occasionally listen to my most venerable, oh so polite Marantz 8B tube amp, and that does add a slight, pleasant warmth to the sound that I do not find objectionable. Big thing is to enjoy the music and the hobby.

 

[Chazz6]

Rudy Van Gelder ran a recording studio in his home, overlapping the tube and solid-state eras. During the former, many prominent jazz musicians insisted to the record label that they must record in his studio. The musicians loved the result – the result being an LP played on high fidelity systems of the day.

And guess what, Van Gelder bent the sound a lot. He did not strive to record something that, when played, would be faithful to the sound that was in the air of his studio.

 

[levimax]

Rudy Van Gelder ran a recording studio in his home, overlapping the tube and solid-state eras. During the former, many prominent jazz musicians insisted to the record label that they must record in his studio. The musicians loved the result – the result being an LP played on high fidelity systems of the day.

And guess what, Van Gelder bent the sound a lot. He did not strive to record something that, when played, would be faithful to the sound that was in the air of his studio.

I read somewhere that Van Gelder's "Blue Note Sound" was so popular that people expected to hear it live and that the performers had to start doing all sorts of things to make their live performances sound more like the LP's

 

[Chr1]

Blue Note stands for quality in my book.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

Folowing that logic: why stop at amps - you need Altec 604s as well.

Yes! Ya nailed it. How far do we go, and at what expense, to hear the music as artists and engineers intended/expected it to be heard? Obviously, there's a limit and I'm thinking that's ok. Otherwise, it gets to be like that Jorge Borges short story about the guy trying to "live" the life of Don Quixote to its smallest detail so he could better immerse himself in the novel, to better appreciate the artist's intent, meaning, and vision. I don't want to be that guy...lol.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

See if it's possible to borrow or rent a tube amp setup for a couple of listening sessions with your system and see for yourself if there is anything to it. If you find it unappealing, then there's no loss when you return the amplifier setup except for shipping and maybe rental fees. Problem with tube amps is that they generally have a high output impedance compared to S.S. ones, and that can interact with the speaker's impedance in voltage divider action of the two impedances-the speaker's and the amp's. Impedance variations over frequency in the speaker will cause variations in amplitude response altering sound quality. It just might be that a certain combination of amp & speaker may sound euphonic, the way whipped cream can enhance a slice of pumpkin pie. Problem is, do you want whipped cream on every food item you eat?

Unfortunately, it happens I have terrible sweet tooth, hard wired that way I'm guessing, so yes, I'd enjoyed a diet of whipped cream on everything...lol. Many thanks for your thoughtful response. Wise advice - check it out and see what you think.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

I, like you, listen to a lot of older music and recordings. I do not think your amp technology is at issue all. Many older recordings were mixed and mastered for the formats of the day: 45s, or AM radio (and small single woofer speakers). As such, they were mixed with reduced low bass energy and reduced high end clarity... realistically just missing the frequency extremes. So the music will sit 'comfortable' within a full range amp.

You may want to explore vintage gear for the fun of it all... but I wouldn't stress.

Sage advice, thank you. I definitely can take this stuff a bit too seriously and get too much in my head about it - sometimes I forget the end game is music that is richly rewarding, moving, and fun. Thanks again.

 

[Adis]

Yes! Ya nailed it. How far do we go, and at what expense, to hear the music as artists and engineers intended/expected it to be heard? Obviously, there's a limit and I'm thinking that's ok. Otherwise, it gets to be like that Jorge Borges short story about the guy trying to "live" the life of Don Quixote to its smallest detail so he could better immerse himself in the novel, to better appreciate the artist's intent, meaning, and vision. I don't want to be that guy...lol.

No one, really, wants to be that guy.
I'm content with fairly flat FR and sufficient (for me) dynamics. Better performance is better, of course, but it's not like if I have a speaker with not SOTA performance, suddenly Dave Mustaine will sing instead of Elvis Presley on the same recording.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

The point always has been to use the best possible signal chain to record and playback sessions. In the fifties didn't use tube gear because they could choose between tube and solid-state gear. Recording engineers only had tube gear back then. If they had better gear to work with, they would (and did). Those older recordings usually sound better played back through more modern gear. One can make some adjustments in EQ to get around the limitations of the older recordings, but the short answer is that older recordings sound best when reproduced through the best gear. And the better the tube gear, the more closely it resembles the best solid-state ge

The psychoacoustic power of tube amps is incredibly high, it is almost 100% certain that if you hook up a tube amp and can see it that is will sound "better" or "more authentic vintage" or something similar. The only way to do it would be blind testing but that adds a lot of complication.

You make an interesting point "the psychoacoustic power of tube amps." I understand audio measurements are based on established psychoacoustic principles. You're referring to something else, though, that goes beyond that. Maybe the the field of psychoacoustic science would do well to be more meta-, to include the psyche's power to delude itself for its own benefit (the placebo effects and its different variants)...woah, my head is spinning.

 

[Multicore]

and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps?

It's an interesting idea, assuming I may reword it that the old recordings were made to be played on the period equipment so we might want to try to listen to it like that. I don't think there's a right or wrong to this. I mean, if we have a moral duty to respect the intent of the producers and engineers then we can shut up about the loudness war and take what we're given.

A possible answer to your friend might be to say that you prefer to listen through the sound to the music. The music survives through a wide range of audio reproductions. The enduring popularity of these old recordings you mentioned proves they are well suited to this approach.

I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard?

If you want to experiment to learn something about how old non-transparent audio gear sounded like, I recommend using modeling software. That's what the pros use and there a big and competitive market for plug-ins. You'd likely learn nothing my simply switching over to a tube amp. With software control you can properly A/B different settings. I for one can't be bothered and just suffer the consequences of contemporary high quality sound but that's because I'm lazy and lack motivation to tinker with sound to see if I can find one that is perhaps arguably more authentic to some historical imagination.

 

[Robin L]

You make an interesting point "the psychoacoustic power of tube amps." I understand audio measurements are based on established psychoacoustic principles. You're referring to something else, though, that goes beyond that. Maybe the the field of psychoacoustic science would do well to be more meta-, to include the psyche's power to delude itself for its own benefit (the placebo effects and its different variants)...woah, my head is spinning.

There's always the possibility that outgassing components in tube gear has a psycho-pharmacological effect.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

There's always the possibility that outgassing components in tube gear has a psycho-pharmacological effect.

Lol...I do find a little whisky goes a long way in my enjoyment of jazz (say Chet Baker), late at night in a dimly lit room.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

It's an interesting idea, assuming I may reword it that the old recordings were made to be played on the period equipment so we might want to try to listen to it like that. I don't think there's a right or wrong to this. I mean, if we have a moral duty to respect the intent of the producers and engineers then we can shut up about the loudness war and take what we're given.

A possible answer to your friend might be to say that you prefer to listen through the sound to the music. The music survives through a wide range of audio reproductions. The enduring popularity of these old recordings you mentioned proves they are well suited to this approach.


If you want to experiment to learn something about how old non-transparent audio gear sounded like, I recommend using modeling software. That's what the pros use and there a big and competitive market for plug-ins. You'd likely learn nothing my simply switching over to a tube amp. With software control you can properly A/B different settings. I for one can't be bothered and just suffer the consequences of contemporary high quality sound but that's because I'm lazy and lack motivation to tinker with sound to see if I can find one that is perhaps arguably more authentic to some historical imagination.

Beautifully put, even poetic. I'm guessing you write for a living or seriously just for fun. I love the idea of checking out that software, many thanks for your post and the info!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

if we have a moral duty to respect the intent of the producers and engineers

Fortunately we have no such moral duty, nor could we in any way beyond headcanon or fantasy

 

[levimax]

You make an interesting point "the psychoacoustic power of tube amps." I understand audio measurements are based on established psychoacoustic principles. You're referring to something else, though, that goes beyond that.

Read up on "confirmation bias".... human beings actually hear things differently even though the sound waves themselves are the same based on a what they see or read or believe, or other stimuli. It is not something you can control through will power or rational thought, it is just part of being human. The only way to control for it is "blind testing" where you don't know what is playing and you can only go by the sound waves. For whatever reason tube amps are particularly powerful in this regard and in my experience almost everyone doing sighted listening tests will say a tube amp sounds different even if no difference actually exists in the sound waves.

 

[Multicore]

Fortunately we have no such moral duty, nor could we in any way beyond headcanon or fantasy

I agree but you'll notice how the OP's friend's argument about why OP should use a vintage tube amp implies some kind of morality.

Funny thing is that if we should be using period gear to listen to period recordings then I'd think the turntable, pickup, needle and speakers would have more impact. Why is OP's friend particularly concerned about the amp, I wonder?

 

[Multicore]

Beautifully put, even poetic. I'm guessing you write for a living or seriously just for fun. I love the idea of checking out that software, many thanks for your post and the info!

You bet. There's a lot of software out there besides what's for sale on Sweetwater. Some of it is free. And there's open source plugins too, this could get you started. For maximum learning you could try programming your own. Signal processing is a trip.